English Votes for English Laws

Anniebach

Would/could that scenario happen in today's system?

E,G. The Wales Assembly would put a stop to it happening due to having a devolved parliament.

POGS, I do understand your frustration but laws are made in England simply because it's the biggest country

Again I will bring up Capel Celyn, not for nationalist reasons but an example of how England if inclined do as they wish - not the English people

A private bill sponsored by an English city to build a reservoir in Wales no planning consent required under authority of an act of parliament . The house voted, 35 out of 36 welsh MP's voted against - one abstained , the valley was flooded in 1965 after we fought against it for eight years, families lost their homes, the villages were told to have the remains dug up or cemented over, this was a village were generations had lived , farms were flooded. This started the rise in support for Plaid Cymru and following the flooding Plaid won it's first seat . An apology was extended in 2005

This happened simply because England had more MP's , so England can do as they wish , this has nothing to do with political parties , it's a fact, if the other three countries stood together they could not overrule England

Anniebach

"What happens in England often affects the other 3 countries".

That sort of statement is possibly where a lot of the problem arises.

Fact, Westminster is the parliament for the 4 countries who presently make up the United Kingdom. Westminster is based in England. Westminster has representation in the form of Westminster MP's from all 4 nations who vote on UK laws and policies, however 3 have their own policy making parliaments/assemblies in their devolved countries.

It is the geography of where Westminster is sited that gives rise to the 'perception' to those who don't understand / believe political spin that all laws are made 'solely' by the English and this is where the animosity/hatred/misunderstanding can be monumental in the mind of those who believe this to be the case.

I have no doubt if, years ago, the UK parliament had been based in Cardiff then it would be said the Welsh' run the country or Edinburgh the Scottish' run the country.

You only have to look and listen to the rhetoric of 'some' of the political parties and political 'spin' to make my point for me. Westminster is hated by Nationalists because they obviously want total independence and relish the break up of the UK. That's the point of their existence, their ultimate goal. I understand why some want that and that is democracy.

What I wholeheartedly object to and get annoyed with is the misinformed rhetoric of political spin that does it's damnedest to turn Westminster into the object of hatred to stoke the passion of nationalism .

England alone does not make the laws of the United Kingdom , I wish that point could be understood.

That is unjust POGS when Scots MP's can vote on criminal laws when Scotland has it's own criminal laws, but what a muddle it will be, change in criminal law and England and Wales vote, not sure about N Ireland , there must be a few others but if England had an assembly this would be solved , well not for criminal law. Just what matters that concern only England needs a parlimentary vote? What happens in England often affects the other three countries , what happens in Wales doesn't , I have to take care what I say or I will be hammered again . People complain Wales has free prescriptions they make no effort to find out what Wales loses out on .

Example of what is unfair but has to be accepted, money was never spent on hospitals in Wales as it was in England , we don't have a Moorfields but now we have to pay to be treated there . We have very few physciatric centres so have to pay for beds in England , Wales is a poor country , much more since we lost our pits, we cannot afford to build with the money our NHS is given by Westminster . We are stuck on the end of a much bigger country

Anniebach

As mentioned 'many times'. Westminster MP's from devolved countries CAN vote for England laws and policies that apply to England only.

Westminster England MP's CANOT in turn vote on laws/policies that apply solely to
the devolved countries!

Why? Because rights are afforded to the devolved countries 'allowing' them making their own laws/policies as they are devolved nations, having their own parliaments/assemblies and elected MP's.

That is why devolution being refused to England has caused an imbalance within the Westminster voting system.

How has it caused an unbalance in Westminster POGS? I ask from interest not in disagreement

Anniebach

There is no equality , as such . Never has been since Labour introduced devolution for 3 countries only.

It is repeatedly mentioned that David Cameron , Tories, government are rushing things through as though there is some cunning plot, something Machiavellian .

I am no genius but I think it is an attempt to start this government off with a level playing field , something successive governments since devolution have refused to do but this only allowed the 'West Lothian' question to ferment . It has been a thorn in the side for English MP's and for all the 'many' reasons pointed out it has to be addressed.

It doesn't/didn't help the tension over this matter when 'some' MP's from devolved countries gloat/say they will vote against the present government for nothing more than hatred. If anybody thinks I am making a crass remark I am sorry but it has been quite openly spoke of, therefore obviously heard, in the 'many, many' interviews the devolved countries MP's have given.

Whilst I would like to have/have had a referendum and hopefully an English Parliament/Assembly this would take years to come to fruition. The government is trying to appease an 'unbalance' which has taken place in Westminster for years by proposing a possible solution to the question.

I agree and have said it is a half assed attempt but the alternative is business as usual isn't it!

rosesarered, having devolution in the four countries doesn't seem to be the objection, it's no referendum for England yet there was for Scotland and Wales and for me I think an English assembly should have it's assembly members not MP's in the UK Parliament, where is the equality in this

If more people thought of ourselves as the United Kingdom and were pleased about it ( I mean, after all these years!!) instead of feeling so defensive and divided, then things would be a lot better.Having devolution for all four countries should not be a bone of contention.

The whole thing ' is not a mess' and was promised to the English electorate to be done as soon as possible, which is what is now happening.

Excellent posts POGS and Grumppa. Says it all really.

Then Lilygran, who is the AB in Glamorgan who grumpa claims would verbally assault him if he went there?

Anyway back to the subject ,I agree whole thing is a mess and this rushing in by Cameron will make things worse

I don't think grumpa was getting at you, Annie. I thought he said what he meant, that in the UK we're all of very mixed heritage and politics based on regionalism is a mistake. The fact is that London has an assembly already and assemblies are being pushed on other regions. But only if we agree to elect a regional Mayor, something most regions refused to do when it was suggested before. This is another half-assed attempt at solving the wrong problem. Regionalism is being forced on us by a total failure of central government (all parties) to address the fall-out from the earlier precipitate programme of devolution that has left the constitution of the UK in such a mess.

I think I'm the one with the life, AB; I don't concern myself too much with what happened in 1290 or whenever.

I mentioned my own Welsh roots to make the point that many of us are a mixture of English, Welsh, Scottish, etc., and for that reason alone may not like to see the UK being pulled apart. The main political parties are losing their traditional class-based identities, and the only cohesive ones, the SNP and Plaid Cymru, are essentially divisive in the context of the nation as a whole.

A separate parliament for England could be accommodated in the House of Commons, with the Lords abolished and their chamber used for a UK Parliament.

what England are being offered is 'devo-min' and all it amounts to is that MPs for an English constituency (they could be any race colour or creed) are being asked to vote as 'EMPs' on the very very few occasions when the bill under debate is relevant to and affects only the country of 'England' (don't quite see that any debate of the NHS spending would fall into that category)
POGS - good post - I totally agree with you.

I am so dippy, only just realised grumpa was making rather juvenile snide jibes at me , get a life you silly person.

Yes Jen and I fully support a referendum. The way this is being carried out is so wrong. What is suspicious is when Scotland had their assembly it was only after a vote had been held in Parliment, this was 1979 , Wales first end voted in 1979 and again in 1997, but this too was passed by parliment but there was also a royal commission on the constitution held in 1973

Why the rush in a matter of weeks after 36 years ? What is Cameron up to? I am not being anti Tory, I would ask the same no matter who was in power, why after silence for 36 years is it being rushed through and the people not even being consulted or informed and not given a vote ?

That was the whole point of this thread, Annie, that it is being rushed through in the next two weeks, without the English having a say or even knowing what it means. The only people who do are some members of the government.
We should have a proper referendum, and be told what exactly it means if we vote for an English Assembly.
As somebody said earlier, the NHS is a problem. Scotland runs its own NHS, but the finance is set by the British government. We have an NHS England, but the national part of it is being quickly eroded. If more money is given to NHS England as has been asked for today, as 9 out of 10 hospital trusut will be in the red, that will mean less money for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Grumppa, you would be quite safe up here. I am sure I wouldn't recognise you if you didn't open your mouth.

Soontobe...I exist in the real world too. My virtual world opinions are no different to my real world opinions.

POGS, I am only joining in this discussion because I find it interesting. I fully support England having a referendum as did Scotland and Wales , if the majority vote yes then the right to vote for their representives follows, I don't think it should be done in weeks, it needs thinking through then given over to the people to decide , this is democratic

Let's have another go.

England should have the respect from the other devolved countries to have the same as themselves, it's own parliament/assembly.

Not to agree is neither democratic nor fair. This was a mistake from the outset and has been a bone of contention since the devolved countries were given the referendum to decide their choice but the English had no parity with the others 2 countries of the UK. N.Ireland devolved at a later date. In others words England voters had to put up and shut up.

The members of the Scottish /Welsh and N.Ireland parliaments/assemblies CANNOT vote in Westminster because they are voting for policies that apply 'solely' to their own countries.

If England has it's own assembly then those elected would also NOT be permitted to vote in Westminster. Obviously!

If England is refused an assembly, even a referendum to decide, then the only politically elected spokespeople for the English voter is the Westminster MP's.

An alternative to England not having an assembly and assembly members, COULD be to allow English Westminster MP's the opportunity to debate and vote on policies that apply to England only as they have no equivalent parliamentary building such as Stormont and Holyrood.

The latter is a half assed attempt to try and put right the disparity for the English voter but it would be better for England to have an assembly like Scotland,Wales and N.Ireland. Westminster remains the sole place of debate and voting for UK laws and policies that are not devolved to those devolved nations parliament/assembly members.

By the way it has been mentioned that Scotland MP's do not vote on English only matters. They have been pretty good on that score in the past but there have been so many interviews done with Sturgeon and Salmond where that does not look as though it will be the case in future.

If England was one of the 3 nations who had devolved parliaments/assemblies then whichever of the 4 nations was not I would not hesitate to say the same in their defense. Yet it seems to me it is a dislike of all things English that is causing the resistance by some to seeing that England has not got equality with the other devolved countries. That is what is at the heart of the matter.

Gracesgran, it does all seem a muddle doesn't it . If Wales decide they don't like the way the assembly is running things we can vote them out next year, it would have no effect on our MP's in Westminster , but if England has the same people running the equivalent of an assembly and the country ?

grumppa, sorry but I don't see the connection between your Welsh roots or your mother unhappy marriage with English votes and this isn't a London issue it concerns the entire population of England

Hmmm. I totally understand the need for separate votes for English matters now we have devolved so much but I would be very unhappy if that is all that happened. I think it will be however as none of the current MPs will not want to give us any of what they consider to be their power.

So, Anniebach, who should be the PM? An MP whose constituency happens to be in England, or somebody with no constituency at all, a member of the House of Lords, perhaps?

At this point I should declare that although I was born in Middlesex my father was born in Wales and has impeccable Welsh roots on his father's side and for at least two generations on his mother's. My mother was English, but having traced her ancestry back to the 15th century I have found out that she too was of Welsh descent. Had she still been alive, she would have been mortified to learn this, having had an unsatisfactory marriage to a Welshman.

My point is that nearly all of us are hybrid, and we would all be better off if we just accepted we were British and just got on with life. I hardly dare go to the North East for fear of being harangued by DJ and her ilk, or to my roots in Glamorgan for fear of being verbally assaulted by AB and her chums.

Failing that, I propose that London secede from the UK as Singapore did from Malaya.