Longer opening hours on Sunday

This is quite a good bbc link about the quirks of Sunday opening. Apparently, Scotland has never had regulatory restrictions.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33427825

When John Lewis eventually started opening on Sundays and Bank Holidaysthey found that although sales were increased profits went down because of the cost of paying partners extra for those days. At the same time they didn't want to close and lose their place in the High Street on those days. Presumably all the other shops feel the same.

Bags I don't think I've ever discussed with anyone, friend or family, whether they personally pay off their credit card bills each month. I certainly do, but I don't know about anyone else.
But according to this website www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2039666/One-spend-half-income-repay-non-mortgage-debt.html
'One in four people in Britain are using over 40 per cent of their wages each month just to pay off non-mortgage debt, according to new data.'
And
'The UK average for personal debt, according to MoneySupermarket, is £7,388.'
That is excluding mortgage debt.
I doubt whether debt levels were anything like that in the 50s and 60s.
I fear that we have an illusion of prosperity based on personal and national debt and one day it is all going to come crashing down. It's just a question of when, and who will be the winners and losers.
I did look up Max Roser and will read his stuff properly later.

It's a good article, isn't it, vegas? Funny how Scotland has coped all these years with no Sunday trading restrictions

It's change people don't like.

I accept that many people are in shopping debt then, janea, already, without Sunday trading... well, with it sort of...
I don't see how a few extra hours shopping time in some shops that don't open already on Sundays will make a blind bit of difference to that. If people want to, or can, or can't not get into credit card debt they obviously will whatever shop opening times are, so Sunday opening is irrelevant as far as credit card debt goes.

I do understand the family time argument but I suppose its connection with religious rules makes me baulk at it. Can families really not find any other time to spend together – always supposing they want to; I wasn't the only young mum I knew in Edinburgh who would have been glad to get away from her family for a few hours on a Sunday. Sundays were a drag quite often when we couldn't afford to go anywhere.

I don't think this push for longer opening hours is coming from the public at all. I don't see the need for this change - as it is, shops are open for a few hours on Sundays for those who want to use them. I don't think ordinary people are demanding this - it's a political fiction.

Linking together jainainsworth's link, and the figures in the op, the debt figure has come down from 1.5bn in 2011 to 1.25bn, if I am understanding the figures correctly. Which is commendable I think. Is there anyone who wants it to go back up to that figure? Businesses and Governments might. Most people dont.

£1.451 billion down to more than £1.25 billion , still a terrifying amount if we do not have to take mortgage debt into account. I wonder if different sources don't have to include a margin for error in such figures?
Bottom line for me is, do I believe this is necessary to boost the economy as the Chancellor would have us believe? I don't believe it would generate significantly more work, I note that around us, the Sunday staff are not infrequently young people, (I recognise some Sixth formers ) who are of course cheaper than adult staff and if as has been suggested elsewhere, Internet shopping is the way forward for many stores, then I can't see an increase in sales either. More spending and more wages would of course increase tax revenue to the government, so benefit to somebody there. To return to other European countries, Germany has a booming economy, but does not favour extended opening hours, maybe some members will share their experience in France, Belgium etc?
<And I can still think of a whole heap of cheap, even free and enjoyable things to do on a Sunday afternoon in Edinburgh without hitting Princes Street or the ghastly Gyle>

It may be that Sunday opening in Scotland was not restricted by law but when I was young, no shops - apart from chippies and ice cream shops - opened on Sundays which was universally accepted as a 'day of rest'. The Scottish Parliament passed the Sunday Working (Scotland) Act 2003 which prohibits shops from compelling their workers to work on Sunday. Not having lived in my native land for 50 years, I don't know when or why the convention of Sunday closing changed, though I can't believe it was a change for the better.

The French economic system is known for it slow growth generally, but is showing signs of a small upswing, but I don't think this has much to do with shop-opening hours. See my comments ^^ 11.41.45. More to do with export.

Bags I wasn't suggesting that Sunday shopping was the cause of increased household debt. Although I don't like Sunday shopping personally, I don't think it causes people to overspend. My objections are based on people having to work unsocial hours doing things that aren't necessary.

I was disagreeing with your suggestion that there is 'more wealth sloshing around the system than there was a generation or two ago'. My point is that people may have more stuff, but they have negative amounts of money.
If there appears to be more money in the system it's because the banks have artificially manufactured it and the wealth is an illusion.

I see. Thanks, jane. So the numbers and amounts of luxury goods and of tat that are available to buy nowadays, and weren't thirty of so years ago, at least not in any widespread sense, and the fact that people appear to be able to buy more of them, is not a sign of wealth? I thought it was.

And the fact that more children than ever before, and increasing, worldwide are now going to school is not a sign of greater wealth? I thought it was.

And the fact that living conditions, while still dire in some places, are also gradually improving, again worldwide, is not a sign of greater wealth? I thought it was.

And the fact that we can now easily by foods from all over the world that we hadn't heard of, and neither had our parents, when we were kids, is not a sign of increased wealth? I thought it was.

What are those improvements in the human condition if not signs of greater real wealth? Banks can't print stuff like that.

Can they? If they can and if they are doing my attitude to banks will change a great deal.

I agree thatbags, there is definitely more money to spend than there was for our generation, standards have gone up,and goods themselves seem to be cheaper.Not that everyone is buying luxury goods, although some are, but the proliferation of pound shops and grocery shops like Aldi and Lidl are keeping prices low.

generally, people go on better holidays, and have better houses and contents inside the houses.They go to the cinema, eat out, buy magazines etc far more than they used to do.

Bags I don't disagree with you that there are many signs of apparent wealth.
But the U.S. owes $16trillion. I don't even know what a trillion is. For many other countries, the ratio of debt to GDP is increasing and this is a worry.
www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2015/04/24/national-debt-tops-18-trillion-guess-how-much-you-owe/
This article explains it better than I can.

Roses has it occurred to you that pound shops might have proliferated because people don't have as much money to spend and have to buy cheaper things?

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out but I've also read stuff that argues that debt such as the US has (and the UK and a lot of other countries, if not all of them) is actually necessary. Sounds weird, I know, but it made sense at the time of reading.

Jane, has it occurred to you that you may not always be right?

My DC and a lot of their generation now in their 30's and 40's have more cash to spend than I do.

Countries always have huge debts.

I was thinking about how one defines wealth when I read your post B (15.19.01) . Quite agree.

Let's hope that at least some of the people apparently enjoying greater wealth go to Greece for their holidays and do something to relieve the poverty that has ensued from national debt and financial mismanagement by their own government and the institutions who lent them the money.

I have a very limited understanding of economics both national and international and is based only on media headlines and gut instinct! My simplistic opinion is as thus:

People make things/ provide services people need, people buy them
and the producer makes a profit.

Producer wants more profit so makes/provides things people would like but do not need. People buy and the producer makes more profit.

Producer wants even more profit so advertises services/things people mostly don't need and opens more places to sell goods/provide services. people begin to believe they need things that are not essential and must have access to them 24/7.

Pros: Producers provide work for people who earn money to buy the things they need/ like but don't need. Drive for new products creates opportunity for innovation, development of ideas etc. Positive benefits found through innovation.

Cons:Increased use of / encroachment on natural resources damage environments, producers want ever increasing profit and cut corners , can lead to exploitation, people buy things they can't afford, debt grows, producers get greedy and try to reduce competition by 'take overs' funded by multi million loans etc. Corporations become global and lose sight of the individual and pursuit of profit is all that matters: money= power.

To me extended Sunday trading is not a good thing for secularism just a good thing for those already making big profits. It won't really benefit the small business as it will probably cost them as much in staff costs /utilities as any additional takings. Businesses that will benefit through increased profit will be the bigger corporates etc.

I was chatting with the lady at the checkout in Asda yesterday (Sunday) and I asked her opinion on the possible increased Sunday trading. She said that she would be happy about it as she is only able to work weekends due to other commitments and would welcome more hours. She added that in our local Asda there is always a list of people wanting more weekend or late night hours to fit in with family life and other commitments. Personally (and this may not be a popular opinion) I too would welcome an increase in Sunday trading hours although I don't think 24 hours is necessary. Maybe 6-7 PM closingwould be ideal. I have a lot of commitments during the week and often Sundays are my only chance to catch up with both housework and shopping.

I was recently in a small town in Germany in a Sunday and shops were closed- it was lovely. I wish we could get back to it - but obviously not.