The Left's way forward

apologies for being so irritable with soon earlier - I can only put it down to an addiction to that 2nd cup of coffee.

So far as the economy goes, it links to my point about people needing to feel safe. I'd add secure employment alongside decent working conditions/wages to my list. I'm increasingly convinced that the Labour party needs to set out it's core values and that policies will follow from that.

Meant to add that I can find no evidence of left-leaning tories as far as welfare is concerned.

Simple and largely in agreement with most posters here

A reliable NHS
A sustainable education system
A fair approach to welfare which means realistic benefits - ie cutting back on universal benefits where they aren't needed and a focus on supporting those who need them.
However I believe that these are already the aims of SNP.
If a new labour leader can offer these plus fair treatment of Scotland, I might be tempted to consider returning to a labour vote.
At the moment though, there's no contest as far as I'm concerned.

"Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton

But I'm not talking about a dictatorship I'm talking about the power a government exercises when it has been elected; by the voters.

Winning the next election does not seem to be uppermust in many people's mind. Or that's how it seems trisher.

All power corrupts Anya so if a party starts out without any ideology except the desire for power what will it become? Not a party I would want to support or see in government. (Oh perhaps we already have that)

It's just as well there's no acceptable alternative as there was in Scotland GG who would have predicted that five years ago?

But I don't think we can equate Scottish voters with the rest of the UK.

However, how about my main point - that the party needs to learn the lessons of defeat? Is Labour becoming a party which increasingly prefers ideological purity to power?

I have thought that the survival of the Labour Party as a party representing about a third of the population my have been threatened for some years Anya but I also think the same applies to the Conservatives. How long is it since any government had the majority of the population behind it?

We may naturally move towards more smaller parties, which are segments of the old parties, plus the existing smaller ones coalescing in one group and then another to cover different areas.

So no concerns re NHS, welfare or education? mcem how about succinctly giving us your three of four top areas that would persuade you to vote Labour?

Intersting article in paper today suggesting that the very survival of the Labour Party is threatened. It suggests that 'introspection has taken hold, with some in the party more angry with the country for not voting the 'right' way than willing to learn the lessons of defeat'.

Is there perhaps an echo of that feeling here on GN?

There is of course the elephant in the room which is the legacy of Tony Blair. I know he managed to get the Labour party elected, but I think the damage he did both by his involvement in the Iraq war and his obvious personal acquisitions and wealth, still lingers. Those who look at the party and think that only another Blair figure could possibly take it to another victory never mention the distaste and distrust he left behind. Only a committed, principled leader with real socialist beliefs could possibly erase the memory. The labour party needs to revisit its founding principles and make sure these are what it focuses on.

education - I am so far out of the loop, educationwise nowadays, that I dont really know how each party currently differs from one another.

welfare - it seems to me, that the Tories have become more left leaning in this regard, and Labour possibly right leaning, which suits me.

NHS - I am a bit in a muddle about this myself.
My son has just had an operation in a different country, and I think that his care was better then the NHS.
And I am a bit concerned at the actual health service we now receive in this country.
So I am trying to make my mind up whether some sort of insurance scheme would actually be better overall for the health of the nation in general.

So yes I have concerns but they are not a voting issue for me right now, as I dont know my own mind about them.

OK

These would be aims

* a healthy, educated populace with good job prospects
* a society tolerant of others and working together for the common good

So no concerns re NHS, welfare or education?

I have voted Labour in the past.
I wasnt complaining at your list, I thought it was well written and thought through.

Gracesgran.
1.Economy
2. Defence
3. Pro business though that is part of economy really.
4. Not sure that I have a 4th.

Oh soon, you'll never vote Labour so it bothers me not that you pick up on something in this way. I did say I'd not yet had my 2nd coffee so it was a rough list that'd need adding to.

Soon, I think your views are very important because, although a self-declared none Labour voter you are prepared to discuss this with those of a left wing leaning. I would be really interested to know what four major policies any party would have to offer to tempt you to vote for them. I appreciate many may not see them as Labour policies but I would find it really interesting.

And the economy Iam64?

The Labour party needs to decide what it stands for. I know it sounds simple but it seems to be something the party has struggled with in recent years. Work out the principles and then work on policies imo.

At a basic level, people need to feel "safe". The last two elections confirmed a small majority of voters didn't feel the Labour party would keep them safe. Safety includes

* health care free at the point of delivery cradle to grave

* Crime management and prevention

* education from age 3 nursery school to 22 (proper apprenticeships)

* development of sustainable forms of power

* defence of the realm

That's my very quick list, pre 2nd cup of coffee so is probably wanting My concern is only Jeremy Corbyn is convincing me he has core beliefs and the capacity to develop policies to support them. I want a Labour government and I'm sad to say I'm not convinced he could deliver one if elected leader. In the wilderness or what ?

Isnt part of the point, that they are broad[as are most parties I suppose].
They believe whatever they believe, but outside of the Labour party, the landscape has changed. I am thinking particularly of Scottish votes, and more people being concerned about the economy.

I cant make out that the beliefs in the Labour Party have actually changed.
And going by people on gransnet, their beliefs havent changed much either.

So for me, who is not a normal Labour voter so feel free to ignore my points, it is just a matter of whether they are going to mellow enough to bend, or not.

At least the skirmish over the welfare bill has finally started a debate in the Labour Party. Let us hope they will get their act together and begin a huge examination of everything they stand for.

I should have been more precise. I didn't mean they shouldn't make enough money to keep the business up to date. I meant any excess over and above the needs of the company and reinvestment.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2015/07/08/jeremy-corbyn-renames-green-qe-as-peoples-qe-but-thats-fine-by-me/

Green quantitative easing? The government prints money to give to companies to buy stuff for building council housing and sorting out environmental concerns like recycling and energy, rather than giving it to banks which use it to benefit shareholders.

That would be to grow the economy Soon and is really very similar to a growing a company except that there seem to be more controls over what you can borrow, what you are going to invest it in and how you are going to pay it back if you are a company!

Borrowing per se is not necessarily a bad thing. If, for instance you take out a loan which you can afford to repay on you current earnings and which will pay for training which in turn increases your income that is a good thing. Or if you take out a loan which your company can afford and which will allow you to invest in machinery to bring down the cost of goods you are already selling at a profit that would be good too. In the same way, if a country borrows to build houses which provides jobs (so some of that money is returning to the exchequer) up-skills your labour force so they are available later for private companies to build more buildings while paying higher wages for the up-skilled labour force which mean higher levels of PAYE, additional corporation tax, etc. and more people with disposable income because the cost of housing comes down so they can spend in the economy generating more taxes and fewer benefits that is good too.

It's complex but a good government should be able to make it work. My worry is that I don't believe GO can add 2 + 2. Like many others I am fiscally conservative (note the small "c" ) so I want to know that if anyone is borrowing on my behalf they know what they are doing so I do understand why you feel as you do.

I thought that whitewave meant things like putting a lot of money into construction and infrastructure, to give people work, kind of thing.