Were you offended?

They won't all leave. Some will sweat it out and in most cases things will improve slowly but surely. Things are improving world-wide, even in the poorest countries.

Just seen that you may have been being sarcastic. I would apologise - well I do if you were - but people have said such things in all seriousness and I am not sure how we are supposed to tell.

but what a lack of "cleverness" you showed in not being born into one of the richest families in that countries.

But we don't know that she/he wasn't!

I haven't seen any other posts from SineDie. I hope the straight-for-the-jugular responses from the warm and fuzzy regulars haven't driven her (or him) away!

He/she has posted on at least one other thread over the weekend.

lily

The "warm and fuzzy" bit.

<tries, unsuccessfully, to stop grinning>

Things are improving world-wide, even in the poorest countries.

thatbags I can't help feeling that this comment is a wee bit Pollyanna. Some things are improving in some of the poorest countries, but everything is actually getting worse in some others. Sudan springs to mind, for example.

Yes, it is a generalisation but by various measures (and data; see Max Roser's stuff) it is true.

I've done a bit of a u turn on this I'm afraid. I watched a programme on BBC4 last night about Himmler [missed the first half which I'm going to watch on catchup]. It seemed to be based on letters written by him, his wife and daughter [and possibly diary readings as well]. Now, I've watched a lot of programmes about WWI & II, but I must say this one shocked me to the core and, even though the graphic pictures were very unsettling what struck me most was the terminology used by Himmler and his family when referring to the Jews, calling them 'the subhumans' etc. Now, I'm not saying that Cameron did anything remotely like that but the programme made me realise how easy it is to stop looking at human beings as individuals and begin to just regard them a problematic group of some kind. And the actual word 'swarm' had somehow made me visualise the people a Calais as a large, threatening group and not individuals each with their own problems and reasons for escaping from the life they had.

If people such as prime ministers are not to be allowed to use any word that someone might interpret as offensive, even when it can also be interpreted as inoffensive, we are doomed.

This is why I mentioned poetry up thread: literary appreciation teaches one to look for all possible meanings of words. In many cases, one can interpret the same word(s) in several completely different ways, and the way one sticks with is influenced by one's own feelings, not those of the writer or speaker. Ambiguity can even be what the speaker or writer intended.

This is what has happened with Cameron's swarm.

Thanks Tegan. I'd posted earlier that I wasn't offended by the use of the word in its context. That doesn't mean I'm not worried by the kind of language being used by many for exactly the reasons you point out.

Same here.

There was, and is, no question of the migrants being regarded as subhuman by Cameron. The belief that there was stems from people's dislike of the man. I dislike the man and his politics too but I do not believe he is evil.

Oddly enough thatbags - I share your view on David Cameron.

Agree with you, Tegan.
There was an article in yesterday's i from someone in Italy.
A few facts;
there are 85000 migrants in Italy in sheltered accommodation
ten days ago migrants were attacked inan area near Rome
a house in Milan was vandalised so that it could not be used as a shelter by migrants
a ten year old girl died at sea because she was diabetic and the smugglers had ditched her insulin

At least the Italian Prime Minister is acting in a humane manner by setting up shelters for the migrants, even though he knows it will cost him votes and possibly his job. To quote him

"If as girl who is the same age as my daughter dies during a sea passage, each of us can think whatever we like, but let's not let our children think their parents, for a percentage point in the polls, have given up their humanity."

He has never used the word swarms.

To some extent it is the fact that most people would not believe DC to be evil that is the problem thatbags. Edmund Burke, often thought of as the father of modern conservatism, said "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". So if this man who intends no evil is not careful with what he says what is the problem if I say worse. On Any Answers this week an email was sent in (I expect it is still available on their site) with a man saying that we should not just be sending better wire fencing it should have, I think he said, 3000 volts running through it, and that this should be tried out on the "lily livered liberals".

We can disregard this sort of thing but the population of this country is not that different in it's behaviour to the pre-war population of Germany. We would have liked many of those people, made friends amongst the and possibly agreed with some of their views particularly in a country that was so fearful of the future.

As for whether DC is evil; I don't believe he needs to be. There are enough with very extreme views who will use someone who has power and who would, sadly, have many people behind them who would tell you, as people have told those of us on here who showed concern, not to be so extreme, nothing we could look back on with horror would ever happen here.

I accept you post as reasonable, gg, and I have the same worries and concerns. I think, however, that as well as hearing about the vandalism and thuggishness such as dj mentions, we should show alongside that all the good that people are doing to help camp migrants at the same time. There is not enough of that in the news because bad news, shocking news, is always better received sells better.

I can't help feeling that this thread is actually split between those who automatically think bees – busy, useful, even vital, to the future of the human race, appealing insects – and locusts – destructive, devastating, unappealing, horrendously noisy, interloping insects, harmful to the human food chain. Would we have had the same response to, say flock? Of course we would because some would think of flocks of free-flying birds searching for their summer or winter homes and other would have thought of silly sheep bred for slaughter. He could have used the word crowd but it wouldn't have implied the dynamic of these people in the current situation and mob, although really just a crowd, suggests some sort of aggression and political unacceptability. Using a collective term for a large number of people really doesn't negate a consideration for the individuals within a group – the latter was not what he talking about so far as I understand.

Once something aural has become visial it's well nigh impossible to get it out of your head. Politicians use language in the the same way as film makers/advertisers etc [or should I say the politicians script writers do]. I still don't think that Cameron meant it in a derogatory way and it was probably an off the cuff remark, not scripted, but it has made me visualise what is happening in France and probably changed my opinion in some way. I do recommend the Storyville programme about Himmler though, hard watching as it may be. I do think also that Harriet Harman has actually made it worse by drawing attention to it [unless it's the news media that has blown it up out of all proportion #i'mnotparanoid,honest!]

Your last guess is probably the correct one, tegan. Media. Out of all proportion. What's new?

Then again things often get blown up by the media when they're trying to slip something through hoping that no one will notice. Will happen even more when the BBC goes and is replaced by Murdoch et al!

Cameron's further plans re Army, fences, sniffer dogs, rather give the message that he didn't mean "swarm" in a friendly way.

Absent, I love bees and am fascinated by them swarming. I want to save bees; they are having a hard time at the moment. I have recently shared a picture of a poster saying "When we go we’re taking you all with us (with picture of bee)"* on my Facebook page. I am, without doubt, a fan of bees.

But I do not like the use of the word swarm in the context that DC used it.

I realise that "one swallow does not a summer make" but I do think that challenges your theory. I would say - my opinion only of course - that those who find it a problem are not even thinking about bees.

*Poster

It makes no difference at all what he says. Hot air and rhetoric.

Great poster Gg