Can a drunk woman give consent?

bags yes, absolutely. You hadn't posted in front of me when I started writing. In the case of rapists, that body language is the message that he could overpower her by various ways and means and get away with it, and clothing would only be a small part of the overall presentation. Anyhow, rape is not a sexual act in itself, but the exertion of anger, and/or power, control, even sadism. I'll come back about spooky's post shortly.

Wilma We see wildlife programmes of animals mating and put our own interpretation onto them, but we don't always see things from the animal's point of view. On the whole, animals manage their sex lives pretty equably.

Animals are programmed to want to mate at the right moment for conception particularly the female of the species. When she is in oestrus, she gives out signals, chemical and behavioural, which advertise that she is ready, and she will accept the male then. Almost all species show no interest at all in mating outside that window. There are some which mate at other times (bonobos mate where humans would hug for affection or to defuse a stressful situation) but very few. Lions kill the young when they take over a pride - but that results in the lionesses' hormones going from lactation to oestrus, which makes them receptive.

Rape is not typical of animal mating.

Re: spooky's points about Germany, they are now out of step with most western countries in addressing rape in their courts. There's an article here which describes how convictions have plummeted. Rape using force is generally accepted as including coercion, not just physical force resulting in scratches or bruises. Angela Merkel has been involved in plans to amend rape laws and guidance to make the system fair again.

www.mintpressnews.com/regressive-german-definition-of-rape-highlights-entrenched-traditional-values/191118/

I agree society has a duty to educate girls how to stay safe, but the balance is not equal when boys aren't having their awareness raised about respectful behaviour to the same extent.

thatbags, sorry I was just saying we are different from most other animals.

spooky the law on rape and serious sexual offences was changed in Germany in the late 90s and is now very similar to the UK law.

I think most western countries have improved the treatment of how people are treated who think they have been raped, but here in the UK the latest data shows rape victims who go to the police are less likely than ever to have the case taken forward to a prosecution. Just 28 per cent of rape cases reported to the police were sent on to the Crown Prosecution Service in the year to March 2014 (in 2009 more than half of all cases were referred to the CPS).

Chrissie Hynde is entitled to her opinion, but I found her comment about rape disappointing in this day and age. It sends the wrong message and may stop someone seeking help.

Of course a woman's choice of clothing should not be made an excuse to rape. However it is interesting that a study has shown that the "animal" signals of the best time to conceive seem also to be instinctive in human females. Human males are probably programmed to respond to those unconscious signals as much as other male animals.

Google "Changes in Women’s Choice of Dress Across the Ovulatory Cycle" for the UCLA study (It is a PDF, which I can't link directly to)

elegran I think we're saying the same thing about animals instinctive behaviour. I wasn't applying anthropomorphism and didn't mean to imply we see rape in the Animal Kingdom.

Just to add about rape law in Germany. The 1997 law does cope now with the consent issue in the context of this discussion, but that doesn't mean the culture has changed much. The way cases are handled would shock many of us in the UK, (but then again, I think some of the posters on here would think differently). I can certainly understand why Angela Merkel wants to strengthen the process.

I agree with Anya completely. I have sons (who are now adults) and I have always told them to be careful. I even worried about them getting drunk and being assaulted.

PS I am not German, but one of my best and oldest friends is and she's very useful sometimes!

grannyJillyT we don't see male rape that often on TV, but I can still recall how shocked I was the first time I watched a programme where a big guy raped a much smaller guy. It was during a programme on during the 9-10 pm slot and over very quickly, but the brutality has stuck with me all these years. It struck me at the time that I could watch female rape without the same degree of shock and really brought it home to me just how much the shock value can be reduced the more we see something.

This whole discussion brings back the memory of watching Jodie Foster in The Accused, a film made in 1988 which is just as relevant today.

WilmaKnickersfit
....The film that came to my mind here was The Way we Were, specifically the scene in which the character played by Barbra Streisand 'takes advantage' of the character played by Robert Redford while he's asleep, drunk....Rape?...If you've seen the film, what do you think?...And why...?

heavenknows, your entry is like a gem in this debate. Some comments show no understanding of the law, little morality and no respect for other women. You are a modern gransnetter, one I would have liked to have known. Many of the other posts are either from women who do not understand the issues, women who do not like other (especially younger) women, or even by men. There are rape apologists here. That is disgraceful. Gransnet, goodbye.

This is still a gender inequality issue above all else. Men can (and do) wear exactly what they like, drink what they like, and try it on with anyone they fancy without any moral assumptions being made about 'asking for it'. They are subject to little criticism about weight or body shape issues, and there is no demand that they show off their testicles in the way that women are expected to present their breasts to view. When these inequalities are resolved then we can BEGIN to address all the other issues around rape and consent.

I disagree with kaTeyJ71 generalisation. There have been several GNers arguing that there is no excuse for rape and challenging those who suggest women /girls are somehow responsible for a man's actions.

So if I had a nice house would I be asking to be robbed. If I had a nice car would I be asking for it to be stolen??? No, of course not. So why is a woman who dresses to impress very often blamed for attracting attention to herself and 'asking' to be raped. She is out to get attention, without doubt, but that does not mean that she is asking to be sexually abused by another human being. She wants to be able to choose who she wants to have sex with, and when. I believe that women should be able to wear what they choose but they do have a responsibility to protect themselves, as much as possible, from assault. there are so many men out there that go out purposely to find girls who have consumed a lot of alcohol because they know they are very likely to have sex with them as inhibitions are weakened under the influence of alcohol.
I do believe that people found drunk in the street should be taken to a police station, for their own protection, and the next day receive a heavy fine. There just has to be some deterrent somehow. So many young people consume copious amounts of alcohol before they even go out so they will 'have a good time'. Sadly, for so many young people that 'good time' turns into the nightmare from hell.

Agree Wondergran. I was thinking of that analogy .... If you forget to lock your door ,it's not an invitation to be burgled.

If you leave the door wide open, with your best diamond necklace hanging on the door-knob - will your jewels still be there in the morning? The thief is still completely in the wrong, and should be apprehended, charged and gaoled, but knowing that you had every right to expect them to be safe won't stop you being shocked at hurt at the loss.

Knowing that you have the right of way at a crossing won't keep you out of hospital if you step out at the green man without also glancing to left and right just in case some maniac is going too fast to stop.

Women have the right to show a lot of flesh if they want to, but they also have the responsibility of not promising more than they will want to deliver.

That is not condoning rape. Just being realistic.

In a sense the discussion about clothes is a red herring. Of course people should be able to wear what they like - though there may be consequences, as someone earlier commented about wearing inappropriate clothing for a job interview.

Yes women who say no get raped, sometimes violently; yes it's terrible, and males should be educated to understand that no means no. But with the cases reported, often it seems that the couple were both consenting but both equally drunk - why should the woman then blame the man? Implying that only women get too drunk to consent to sex is infantilising women.

trisher: Date rape is precisely that, rape. It is both intentional and planned. If your reason is impaired through the malicious and deliberate actions of a third party, you are not responsible. The perpetrator is.

Women (and men) have the right to wear what they want and to walk down the street wearing it without fear of molestation, violation or abuse of any sort. This presupposes that everyone is rational, intelligent, educated and informed; regrettably this is not the case and we are wise to take elementary precautions. When you cross the road you look and dodge the cars, you do not walk across a motorway regardless and cry foul if you are hit.

Man or woman, if you wake up next to someone you don't know after a drinking session having consented to sex you do not have the right to call rape because you now regret it. If you didn't consent then it is rape. Good luck proving that. The responsibility lies with both parties. I do not need to rely on a man to make my decisions nor to be accountable for them. Sometimes I make bad decisions and I have to live with the consequences because they are still my decisions and I am a grown up and it goes with the territory.

Like Wilmaknickersfit, I too was quite surprised to read some of the comments on here.

I had expected that the vast majority of people would not go along with the idea that if a woman gets very drunk then she is in part responsible for being attacked. It may be unwise for a woman (or man) to drink too much, for a number of reasons, not least of which is the chance of, for instance, falling down an escalator, getting mugged, etc., but it is not illegal.

I don't believe that getting drunk is a sign of availability - if by that it is meant that a woman is deliberately signalling that she is, as some people have put it, "up for it". It may, though, be seen as a signal to a weak and inadequate man that here is a chance to have sex with a woman who is in no fit state to either give consent or defend herself.

As for dress, who is actually to determine what is unusually "provocative" dress? Is a short dress, a low neckline, skin tight trousers provocative or are women (and particularly younger women) just wearing the sorts of clothes that they see represented in magazines and videos and which they believe make them look cool and trendy? Even the law accepts that a woman's mode of dress cannot in any way be considered to justify rape, and nor can a woman's drunkenness - though it does present difficulties in establishing what actually happened.

I agree it does muddy the issue if both parties have had so much to drink that neither of them is really in a fit state to either check that consent has been given or to give consent - but that is an evidential issue rather than a judgmental one based on a woman's dress/demeanour.

The fact is that there is an absolutely abysmal record in conviction rates for rape so the dice is already loaded against women. Whilst there have been some mentally disturbed or just plain spiteful women who have been found to have made false allegations, the disproportionate number of acquittals in rape cases suggest that there are probably a great deal more women who have been raped than conviction rates would indicate.

I would just add that I was disturbed to see the demeaning and dehumanising term "oven ready" being used to describe a woman.

Several have mentioned education, I wonder how many watched Sex in Class, I think it's a scandal that this sort of education isn't already part of the curriculum, particularly now that kids can "educate" themselves watching porn on the internet. The influence of the internet was apparent in the way many of the boys had failed to consider their partners; one lad was quite preoccupied with bukkake, but the implicit humiliation and subordination involved hadn't entered his head until he was challenged about it.

It was also interesting to see how uncomfortable some of the teachers were in talking about sex education.

Rox I don't think that rape is necessarily pre-planned, I'm sure a fairly common scenario would be a man who doesn't want to stop after he discovers that she doesn't want to go any further than just petting.

Yes, of course it is always the women's fault for her rape, because we all know that the poor men can't control themselves because they are no better than infants & we women need to watch our every step in case they act out in an uncontrollable way...

fuck me. The attitudes here are disgusting & I hope your daughters/friends etc never need your support after a rape.

The only person responsible for rape is the rapist.

Thanks to those who have posted sensible, thoughtful and well informed comments on this thread. Whenim64 and Eloethan included.

I'm shocked by the ill informed and frankly bigoted comments by some posters. Why should the way in which a woman is dressed make any difference to her right to be safe from rape? One person's view of what is a "provocative" outfit may be the other persons view of their best outfit.

Rape is rape, No means No and as has already been said, many women (and men) who are raped don't report it because they understand how low the successful prosecution rate it and also that they'll be vilified.

Where do all these new posters come from? I have never seen them post before, not even to give a calm opinion on this thread, but they pile in with angry criticism of those who have given it grown-up thought.

The worst that anyone has said on here is that rape is dreadful and that there are indeed SOME men out there who won't put the brakes on when asked - and if a woman is too drunk to ask, then her wishes won't be heard.

Women should be sensible enough to TRY to avoid it. No-one has said they should go out for the evening covered up to the neck, wrists and ankles and drink nothing but straight lemonade.

And, yes, if you flirt and talk suggestively it is MORE LIKELY that a man will assume you are willing to put your body where your mouth is.

There are some angry Mumsnetters who have asked their moderators to look at this thread. Quite rightly, they are disgusted at some of the misinformed views that have been posted.