Can a drunk woman give consent?

I hope some of the posters are visitors (who may stay) from mumsnet. The attitude shown to rape on mumsnet is imo a bit more enlightened than some of the comments on this thread.

But most comments are very sensible, no need to condemn ALL of it as though the whole of Gransnet is full of Victorian moralists who think all rape victims were "asking for it" and were "no better than they should be".

That point has been made on Mumsnet, Elegran

Here's the Mumsnet thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2460636-Rape-myths-thread-in-gransnet?pg=3

From Mumsnet

Consent. It’s a powerful word that, for some bizarre reason, is still argued about to this day. It seems many people still don’t really get what “consent” means

If you’re still struggling, just imagine instead of initiating sex, you’re making them a cup of tea.

You say, “Hey, would you like a cup of tea?” and they go, “OMG, f*ck yes, I would f*cking LOVE a cup of tea! Thank you!” Then you know they want a cup of tea.

If you say, “Hey, would you like a cup of tea?” and they um and ahh and say, “I’m not really sure…” then you can make them a cup of tea or not, but be aware that they might not drink it, and if they don’t drink it then — this is the important bit — don’t make them drink it. You can’t blame them for you going to the effort of making the tea on the off chance they wanted it; you just have to deal with them not drinking it. Just because you made it doesn’t mean you are entitled to watch them drink it.

If they say, “No, thank you,” then don’t make them tea. At all. Don’t make them tea, don’t make them drink tea, don’t get annoyed at them for not wanting tea. They just don’t want tea, okay?

They might say, “Yes, please, that’s kind of you,” and then when the tea arrives they actually don’t want the tea at all. Sure, that’s kind of annoying as you’ve gone to the effort of making the tea, but they remain under no obligation to drink the tea. They did want tea, now they don’t. Sometimes people change their mind in the time it takes to boil that kettle, brew the tea and add the milk. And it’s okay for people to change their mind, and you are still not entitled to watch them drink it even though you went to the trouble of making it.

If they are unconscious, don’t make them tea. Unconscious people don’t want tea and can’t answer the question, “Do you want tea?” because they are unconscious.

Okay, maybe they were conscious when you asked them if they wanted tea, and they said yes, but in the time it took you to boil that kettle, brew the tea and add the milk they are now unconscious. You should just put the tea down, make sure the unconscious person is safe, and — this is the important bit — don’t make them drink the tea.

If someone said yes to tea, started drinking it and then passed out before they’d finished it, don’t keep on pouring it down their throat.

If someone said yes to tea, started drinking it and then passed out before they’d finished it, don’t keep on pouring it down their throat. Take the tea away and make sure they are safe. Because unconscious people don’t want tea. Trust me on this.

If someone said “yes” to tea around your house last Saturday, that doesn’t mean that they want you to make them tea all the time. They don’t want you to come around unexpectedly to their place and make them tea and force them to drink it going, “BUT YOU WANTED TEA LAST WEEK,” or to wake up to find you pouring tea down their throat going “BUT YOU WANTED TEA LAST NIGHT.”

And that’s how you do that. The genius of this metaphor basically exposes everything — EVERYTHING! — that’s wrong with the unevolved dinosaurs who think the issue of consent is a complicated one. It’s not. It’s tea. Freakin’ brilliant.

Bonus? It also works on kids. Just replace tea with ice cream. Though we suppose that works for adults, too.

There you are.

Women should be sensible enough to TRY to avoid it

Women cannot avoid rape. If they are in the company of rapist who wants to rape them, they cannot avoid that.

They cannot prevent it. NOTHING they do will change a rapists mind if he decides that he wants to rape her.

Imagine this, my friend is gay. She has lots of gay & straight female friends. We dress in all sorts of ways. We even share a bed/room with her when we go away, we might even wonder around in our undies, because that is how relaxed we are with each other!

Guess what...even when we are semi naked, she has never felt the need to sexually assault us! Fancy that. So tell me, if she doesn't feel the need to rape us when we are scantily clad, or pissed, or wearing heels, why do men do it? Women can control themselves around women who are 'asking for it' (not my view) yet don't rape them.

Perhaps it is because rape is caused by men who rape. Not women who

were drunk
were alone
got into a taxi/car/train/bus with a rapist
went to a room with a rapist
knew a rapist
didn't know a rapist
started to have sex with him & said no
had sex with him an hour/a day/a week before
had sex with his friend
were wearing ANYTHING

The worst that anyone has said on here is that rape is dreadful and that there are indeed SOME men out there who won't put the brakes on when asked - and if a woman is too drunk to ask, then her wishes won't be heard

You are kidding yourself is you think that is the worst that has been said here. You have blamed a victim for her rape.

If you leave the door wide open, with your best diamond necklace hanging on the door-knob - will your jewels still be there in the morning? Well there is this little fact you see, and that is 1] we can't lock up our vaginas 2] we can't hide the fact that we have them

Actually Elegran I don't think most of the posts are very sensible because most of the posts about how a woman should act or behave are about imposing someone's own beliefs on another person.

The posts may be articulate, but 'sensible' is subjective and I do not believe if a woman doesn't do the 'sensible' things suggested that she is in any way responsible for unwanted sex.

As I said in my first post, I am shocked at some of the attitudes on here, even more so now.

Interestingly, a new series called The Ascent of Women started on BBC2 last night and judging/controlling women by how they dress started around 4000 BC. Reading some of the posts on this thread shows that sadly this appears to be continuing even in the modern world.

whenim64 thank you for posting a copy of the 'consent' post from Mums net. What a brilliant piece of writing.

PS Wish I could type faster!

No. I don't blame a victim for her rape. I blame the man who raped her. Rape is not a new phenomenon, it has been around for ever, ever since Adam and Eve - and that old excuse "The woman tempted me, so I did eat" has been around for ever too. It always will be.

Just as all the other excuses for selfishness and crime have been around for ever. "They've plenty of money, I have none, they won't miss a few pounds" "" "He insulted me." " He deserved to die." " I lost my temper"

Not all men rape, but there are those who will use force to get what they want. Women - particularly young women just starting out on the social scene and looking for romance, not sex, need to know that. Mothers of daughters need to keep telling them so, and mothers of sons need to keep telling them that it is NOT Ok to press someone for sex when they have said no, even if they looked and acted as though they would be willing.

"Proving" whether someone was or was not willing after the event is very very difficult. It depends on one word against another. If it is assumed that no woman ever claims to have said no when she was willing at the time, then there will be - there are - men who are labelled rapists when they are no such thing, just as, if men are always believed, there will be women who are labelled as crying wolf when they had consensual sex.

It is a minefield.

but if a girl goes out looking oven-ready she is asking for trouble.

What the fuck does that even mean?

No. I don't blame a victim for her rape.

Women have the right to show a lot of flesh if they want to, but they also have the responsibility of not promising more than they will want to deliver. ---- Victim blaming

And, yes, if you flirt and talk suggestively it is MORE LIKELY that a man will assume you are willing to put your body where your mouth is. ---- more victim blaming

if you put the onus for preventing a rape on the woman's actions, as you have above "if she didn't promise more then she wanted to deliver" "if you flirt, you have to follow through (paraphrased)" You ARE blaming the victim for her rape. If you tell a rape victim that by doing things differently, she could have avoided her rape, that is victim blaming.

You do not have to go up to a victim & say "you are to blame for your rape' in order to blame her.

I like the tea analogy, but I do think that the cup of tea was made mostly for the benefit of the drinker - with the maker enjoying the prospect of the drinker gulping it down, of course - but sex is for the benefit of both parties.

I don't think most randy young men are thinking too much about how much their partner is going to enjoy it, more about how much they will, and they are full of adrenaline, so get angry when the "treat" is taken away from them.

If someone has just been saying how thirsty they are and how much they do enjoy a nice cuppa, then turning down a cup could come as a bit of a surprise to a keen teamaker who is thirsty himself.

It doesn't matter how much you drink, what you wear, where you walk rape is rape and the only person to blame is the rapist.

I would not use the degrading phrase "ovenready" That was someone else.

but sex is for the benefit of both parties But the thread is about rape. Rape is not sex.

I don't think most randy young men are thinking too much about how much their partner is going to enjoy it, more about how much they will, and they are full of adrenaline, so get angry when the "treat" is taken away from them. So it is the victims fault for making his angry now.

Keep digging, because right now you are doing a fab impression of a rape apologist!

That is what I said, DixieNormas.

Proving in public what you said in private is the difficult bit.

Do you have another analogy that woukd be useful for educating young people, Elegran? I think the tea explanation is simple and easy to grasp, and doesn't need to be dissected on an intellectual level.

What a load of shit, most randy young men arnt thinking too much about how much their partner will enjoy it?

Most young men are quite capable of keeping their dicks in their pants, however randy they are. There is no excuse for the minority of disrespectful abusive twats that fell like they have the right to sex even if their partner doesn't want it.

When the evening begins, the experience is for the benefit of both parties. At some point in the evening - in private - their wishes diverge. One of them gets his wish, the other does not get hers. The experience should have stopped at some time before that. If it does not, it is a criminal act.

I am a realist. I hate rape. I am no rape apologist, neither do I use any of the names that were prevalent when I was young for girls who "led men on", like "cockteaser". Girls have freedom now, with it comes danger.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"

I am out of this conversation.

Except to say that I have never said or implied that "There is no any excuse for the minority of disrespectful abusive twats that fell like they have the right to sex even if their partner doesn't want it." but I did say that women are responsible for themselves.

so get angry when the "treat" is taken away from them.

Men are not toddlers.

A woman's body is not a treat. It is not a reward for any type of behaviour.

Perhaps if a man gets angry when you remove their 'treat' they need to seek help with their anger issues.

I think that saying women are responsible for themselves negates the fact that the intention to rape overrides the majority of attempts to keep safe, or go about your day in a normal way. Short of hiding away from society, women can only do so much. It has to be repeated, if you examine date and acquaintance rape cases, there is nothing significant about what she wore, said, did or drank that prompted an attack. If anything, angry rapists see a 'demure' potential victim as a challenge.

Thankfully, rape is still not an experience for the majority of women, but for those who have been raped, their hearts must be sinking when they read some of the comments on here.

"Once upon a time" women did not go anywhere alone, were protected by their fathers, then their brothers, until they were safely married and the task was taken over by their husbands. They were shielded from the company of predatory males (which was assumed to be all males)

We have thankfully progressed from those times, but date and acquaintance rape is still a danger. How can women distinguish a potential rapist from a genuine date? The truth is - she can't - and neither can a court of law. All she can do is to be careful.

And now I am definitely out of this conversation before it turns into personal accusations.

Oh & it is worth noting that most people seem to to be thinking about stranger rape (which occurs because the victim "got drunk/wore the wrong clothes/went home with him/got in a cab with him"). In actual fact, stranger rape occurs in less than 5% of cases.

You are actually more at risk with someone you know. And it doesn't matter what you are wearing then.

How do all those blaming rape on women view a man's right to have sex with his wife, any time he likes?

They were shielded from the company of predatory males No they weren't, they were controlled. Not allowed out alone in case they did something that their family didn't approve of.