Can a drunk woman give consent?

Well vampirequeen, I truly did not think you were serious when you suggested that men should not be permitted to drink when they go out. Apparently it was a serious suggestion.

'Why should it be the woman who modifies her behaviour'. Because you should take sensible precautions in life - not because you are a woman. Obviously, as the point has been made over and over again yet does not seem to sink in. Everyone has to modify their behaviour in various situations - that's what you do in society. But you shouldn't have to? Because you are a woman? Or everyone should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want? Many now seem to act as if that is the case.

Naturists are not out on the town off their heads on alcohol looking for a good time - it's an entirely different situation with males and females who are both there for the same reasons (mostly - there are always exceptions). It's a weak argument.

The women's rights movement fought for equality. I wonder what the women who really pushed the movement forward think of women falling over drunk with their skirts up around their waists. Now they are just as chavvy as some young men - job well done.

Glad to see trisher keeping up the hysterical response.

Your clarity in differentiating the range of understandable sexual behaviour from predatory aggression explained away as something sexual is the nub of where the confusion lies, bags. That was useful.

I called it a general comment to separate it from the reply to trisher's post.

Rights

That was a comment written by me on Gransnet, soon. I claim full authorship and all right.

Was that a comment on mumsnet, thatbags? It wasnt written by gransnet itself just to clarify?

So if we can't go out skimpily clad, shouldn't drink too much, mustn't park in dark places, hale passing cabs or walk in deserted dark areas

trisher, you can do all that. Plenty of people do. All anyone is saying on here is that there are dangers attached. Anyone who wants to take the attached risks along with drinking too much or walking alone in dark places is free to do so and it is not their fault if they encounter problems. It's unrealistic of them not to accept that there might be problems though. There are risks with all kinds of human activities. That's life. Carry on.

General comment:
I was pleased to realise this morning that the discussion (and ranting) on this thread has clarified something that has not been clear to me. Laddette and Laddish behaviour does give out sexual signals, as I said earlier. We are sexual animals so there's nothing odd about that. Nothing to be ashamed about either, though some of us prefer quieter, more subtle signals (freedom of choice). What I hadn't done before was separate rape completely from such perfectly normal animal sexual behaviour. Now I have. It was the repetition of phrases such as rape is not about sex but about power that had not sunk in properly before, though I thought I understood it. My brain had not sufficiently separated the normal (if not what I would choose) animal sexual signalling that ladds and laddettes of all ages give out from anything to do with rapists, whose activities are beyond the pale.

Thank you for that newfound clarity, Gransnet.

I can't believe your post either Trisher. Equality with men is one thing, but ' blazing a trail for freedom' ...... To act like ladettes? boozing until you are incapable, effing and blinding, and staggering around, is this what you wanted for your daughter? not what I wanted for mine. I wanted them to carve out a career for themselves, debate, think for themself etc.
being silly with burka type comments doesn't add anything.

So if we can't go out skimpily clad, shouldn't drink too much, mustn't park in dark places, hale passing cabs or walk in deserted dark areas why don't we just go the whole hog and don our burkas, segregate areas, keep women in the kitchen where we will be safe. Because obviously men are unable to control themselves and that is our fault. Can't believe some of the posters on this thread. 50 years ago I was a student wearing a mini skirt and drinking in the student's union. We blazed a trail of freedom for our daughters and granddaughters for f...'s sake stop trying to turn the clock back. There were night walks some years ago called Reclaim the streets, some people should remember them and what they stood for.

Thank you Iam64. You get it. Shame that others don't.

To date you've described my posts as nonsense and silly. Now you think I'm joking.

I'm not joking at all. I'm making a valid point. Why should it be the woman who modifies her behaviour? If alcohol makes it difficult for a man to tell if the woman consents or not then stop the men drinking alcohol.

Didn't the women's rights movement fight for the right of women to say, wear and behave how they want rather than in a way that was expected of them. Are they to lose that right now because a few men can't control their sexual urges?

When discussing this subject with DH he said that naturists wear no clothes yet women are not assumed to be up for it. The men seem quite capable of controlling themselves so he doesn't see how lack of clothing comes into the equation.

These were rapes spooky - my post was to highlight the short sentences meted out to rapists. The fact that these were children makes these sentences even less acceptable. I have never been totally convinced about the deterrent effect of sentences, but I would like to see rapists out of circulation.

My DD was troubled by a man who stalked her, and fondled her on buses. She helped the police to get him arrested and heaved a sigh of relief that she was safe - only to be told he had been released the next day because it was a first known offence. I leave you to imagine how scared she was - and how worried we were. It is that experience that makes me realise how frightening it must be for rape victims when the rapist gets a relatively short sentence and they know he will be back circulation so quickly.

I suppose if I am permitted some sarcasm then vampirequeen can also make her joke posts. ;-)

Apologies thatbags if I misunderstood your post.

rosesarered - what we look like or how old we are doesn't offer protection from predatory males. That's my point 'predatory males' not ordinary men, who don't pose a threat to women or other human beings, that is the vast majority of men.

It's the same principle with any danger anywhere.

vamp, I agree that the bottom line is changing rapists' attitudes, but in the meantime it does no harm for people to try to avoid known dangers and it is not wrong to suggest that they could give it a go.

When we teach children how to cross a road safely do we expect the danger to change? No. We want the children to learn how to keep themselves out of danger on roads.

I was not criticising the woman who parked near bushes, iam. That would indeed be shocking. I was putting myself in her shoes and saying what I would, or rather wouldn't, do again. Her horrible experience would, surely, make her avoid car parking spaces away from busy areas full of people. It would me anyway. That's not a criticism; just a completely non-judgmental statement. She didn't do anything wrong or irresponsible; she learned about a danger that had probably never crossed her mind. It wouldn't have crossed mine either without that story.

When a bus knocked me off my bike at a roundabout even though I was right in front of the bus and the driver could see me, I changed how I negotiated that roundabout.

When my eighteen-month old vanished from beside me (while I was hanging washing and she was handing pegs to me from between one handing of pegs and another) and into the street before I noticed, I made sure there was a barrier between her and the street from then on.

One learns from things that happen. That's all I was saying. I am shocked that you thought what I said meant anything else.

Luckygirl, that article is about (another) group of paedophiles. It has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

lam64, if that was something from a comments section on the internet then why on earth would you be shocked by anything some twit decides to post.

Here's a novel idea. Instead of pushing the responsibilities on the girl/woman to modify her behaviour lets push the responsibility onto the men. Let's say that when they go out for the night they can't drink beyond a certain limit in order that they can still appreciate that a woman is a fellow human being and not a piece of meat no matter how scantily dressed or drunk she may be. If they are sober they will also be able to make a considered opinion as to whether the woman is able to give informed consent.

In short men must stay sober in order to protect women.

Honestly, Iam64, I think that you are the one missing the point, in fact what even is your point? Saying ' predatory' cab drivers, would be interested in us oldies? really? You must be a knock out in the looks dept.what cab drivers would look at us twice, never mind in a leering way.
Tons of us on here have said over and over that rape is terrible, of anybody, any age, any sex, wearing any kind of clothes at all, and lots of us have also said that women should keep themselves as safe as possible wherever they can.that includes a wee bit of covering up and not getting blotto.None of us has said that dressing scantily is the sole reason for rape, none of us, so why all the arguements and accusing others of not understanding in a rather patronising way.

I'm shocked that the fact the woman who was dragged out of her car in the John Lewis car park, dragged to bushes and raped appears to be being criticised for parking on the edge of the car park.

Vegasmags, I'm glad you were safe but absolutely take your point. To suggest, as some posters have, that because you're a gran and were therefore not scantily clad, you were probably safe from predatory cab drivers misses the point, doesn't it. Again.

Whoops! - misread 13 for 3 - big apologies. But I still think the sentences are too short. I can't see how any of these men, whose actions were calculated and cruel, could ever be regarded as safe to let out. And will we once more pussyfoot around their racial origin?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-34176106

Check out the sentences for rape in this case - e.g. 3 and a 1/2 years for 3 rapes - all premeditated with grooming - that's just over a year for each crime, probably 9 months with time off for good behaviour. I do not think the sentences are anywhere near long enough. These men represent a serious danger.

the point is, that anyone can be a victim of rape, but at the least, we can all do our best to avoid it and there are many cases where nothing could have been done, and others where they could.

Yes, roses - that was my point.