Perception of poverty and persecution

durhamjen, I thought Margaret was my sister too.
I apologise to you Margaret as you have explained the situation and you have first hand knowledge. My sister maintains that there is no problem and everything is hunky dory, maybe she needs to take her head out of the sand.

I am glad you think it is useful Jane. I think benefits are slightly different when you come to pensioners (re the car). The person concerned has fairly comfortably off family who might have given it as she is very much a carer within the family or, as I think (not sure) that the lowest amount you may have in savings when claiming benefits is £10,000, she may have had sufficient savings. Of course not many people on benefits will have that amount but it is just possible that if she had tiny private pensions she may just have had enough to buy the car from a small lump sum - it was neither new or flashy . I am sure you can imagine the tone of the "how did she do that" from our other friend - it was not pleasant, but what hit me was the assumption that she should not, in any way, have been able to.

My issue with the deserving and the underserving poor is that this should not be relevant in this day and age. That is why we started the National Insurance system. I appreciate that some changes are needed as life has changed so much since its originally implementation but it would surely be better to move more towards a system that is paid for and therefore relevant than one that sees benefits as charity.

I think you are right about the system being far too complex and I know you will have probably heard me "say" this before but one of the simplest things that could be done is to take all pensioners out of benefits by paying a living pension. Yes we would have to find a way to fund it, and tax it back from the highest earners, but I cannot but believe the savings in administration - and in health care and social care that is needed by those who, like your MIL live not only on so little but often less than they should get - would hugely cut the cost of doing this. Also this money is likely to go straight back into the economy.

More than anything I believe it is not a hand-out, or charity, but an insurance we have paid for.

I think most people know the difference by now between he refugees and economic migrants. And to assume that others can't understand this could be seen as arrogant.

Poverty, however, is much more subjective. Many of us on these forums had much less as children, but did not regard ourselves as living in poverty. Neither did our families. That doesn't mean everyone should be content with their lot and be quiet, but living within your means could sometimes be seen as a virtue. So long as those means are within reasonable limits.

I do not think harrigran realised you live in Germany, MargaretX. At least I hope not.
I did actually wonder, briefly, if you were her sister!

harrigan really!!! I never mentioned Germany or the UK. I meant Germany as well when I said there are people living without hope. Have you seen photos of parts of Berlin? We have so many foodbanks here.
Please go back and read my post again. I was not telling the UK how to act I was generealizing as there are the same people here in Germany gong on about the poor cheating. I work for a charity organisation here and know all about that side of things. People are told they have to leave their flats because they are too big and there are no smaller ones available. We get a lot of people in the shop who are down to their last Euro

Its not for me to tell the UK how to do things better. I can imagine if your sister is always going on about how everything is better over here then you must be overly sensitive about it. I at least did not mean that in my post.

Surely one of the really thought provoking things about the current crisis is that so many of the refugees are what we would consider normal, comfortably off families. It's easy to believe that things aren't too bad when the refugees are are the very poor and powerless and life seems to go on as normal for the rest of the population. The realisation that it is people "like us" living on the streets and being herded onto trains reminds us how quickly civilisation breaks down - and didn't those trains crammed with people conjure up memories!

This is an interesting thread. Thanks gracesgran for starting it. Poverty/comparative poverty is nothing new. The Victorian viewpoint of the "deserving or undeserving poor" would illustrate that. The churches poorhouses, work houses etc were in the not so far distant past judging by the "Who do you think you are?" programme.
I know many people on benefits of various sorts. The system is complicated (as I'm sure you know) so its not just a matter of handing out huge sums. Some benefits are relatively small, others open doors to further benefits. No wonder they're trying to simplify things. Most of the people I know that are on benefits couldn't dream of owning a car.
Another thing to consider when thinking about who is being hard on the poor of our times is the age group of many of the complainers: eg my MiL worked since she was 14 and up until a few years before her death in her 90s. We were appalled to find out how little she had been living on for years. She wouldn't have dreamt of applying for any form of benefit or top up. She perceived what she had as income in her 90s as a huge amount and I suppose that it was compared to what she earned in the 1930s, 40s 50s etc but it most certainly was not. We'd happily have helped her if she'd let on. The other aspect for her and for many elderly people is just plain pride. The shadow of the workhouse/poor relief was not so far back in their memories. Their parents would certainly have spoken about it in negative terms. Scary prospects.
At the other end of the age scale are the youngsters who are having a hard enough time as it is. It must be hard for those struggling along on minimum wage without much prospect of improvement ahead to see others not apparently very busy but with the most up to date mobile phone (the big badge of success!!) all paid for as they se it by their benefits. We're human! Its not politics its just plain people!
So, perhaps its the perspective of these people I was hoping to try to summarise. Even the Bible said it -the poor are always with us!

harrigran, I was explaining how easy it is for some to make assumptions

Who has a sense of entitlement harrigran? You have no idea whether the person taking her grandchildren to the cinema or the person mentioned in my OP has. In truth, the people on benefits are entitled - that's how the system works, just as any insurance does. Or do you think we should stop paying NI and go back to the days of there only being charities to look after people in need?

If we take your objection to it's natural conclusion everything anyone does for someone on benefits would have to be counted in. For instance, my mother likes to give me a little bit towards my petrol every now and again and she likes to take the whole family out for dinner from time to time. Should I be on benefits do you believe I should either a) not be able to accept this or b) it should be counted when working out what my insurance gives me in benefit?

Gracesgran, I am not impoverished and do not need help from anyone. I just do not agree with the sense of entitlement that some believe they have.

At today's prices, for many families a trip to the cinema would be a luxury but I wouldn't begrudge the family in Annie's post - sometimes children need to have a treat even if they are foodbank recipients.

We were very poor growing-up, in the 60s, but my mother always found money to send us to the Saturday matinee (mayhem!).

This was not a government bashing thread rosesarered; it was about the perception of the whole population. If the current government uses propaganda to skew the reality it is likely to come up but, to be honest, I was more interested in how people actually perceive the circumstances I outlined.

Harrigran the cinema trip was provided by someone else. I am sorry you do not have someone who can pay for you to take your GC to the cinema but why begrudge this family a little relief?

Anniebach this is the problem with what we might call apocryphal stories or, as I often see them, malicious gossip. I was reading an article the other day in which an LP candidate in the last election reported a doorstep conversation with a constituent who was complaining about people "milking the benefits system". The constituent talked about a women with three children living at the end of his road whose children were "always dressed in designer clothes". The LP candidate knew the women concerned and she was not on benefits but ran a very successful business from home

As to the refugees, I haven't noticed any acrimony on the forum about their status, if they have money or not.leaving a war torn country where nothing works means that money doesn't matter.

there were food banks under the last Labour government as some well know.

another government bashing thread? Really? Do we need yet another one?

Sorry Annie, cinema trips are a luxury not the norm. I take GC to the cinema about three times a year and they have to wait for the DVD being released for the rest of the films they want to see.

I've noticed that Germany is providing an extra £4.4 billion to the refugee crisis. Osborne is just using the same old money but diverting it.
I know who I think the most concerned about the persecuted.

I was leaving the foodbank last week and stopped to speak to some women, a young mother came out of the food bank carrying her bags of food. A woman in the group I was chatting to whispered - she doesn't need to go there, she was in the cinema last week with her children , if she can afford that she can afford to buy her food. Well I know the cinema was a treat for the family paid for by someone not related to them or living near them, didn't know the family but knew they were struggling , some may say the money could have gone into the electric meter but those three children were able to have a fun evening and this made their mother so happy

Why should someone in Germany not tell us how to act, we tell every country what they should or shouldn't do

Indeed DJ. But the Big Society can no longer volunteer to run the library if they are on JSA because then they are not available for work. I try not too read many of the comments on Facebook etc about this humanitarian crisis ( prefer to use that term rather than emotive words like refugees and migrants), but was truly shocked by one I read on Saturday, posted by the wife of a friend, she asked why the Syrians had children if the situation was so terrible, didnt they have birth control there? I was stunned by the bigotry and ignorance of someone I know [shock[. I thought about replying and decided against it, she wouldn't understand.

Impossible to sign on and jobhunt without a computer, too, GillT, although they can go to libraries. Oh, hold on, they are mostly closing unless run by the Big Society.

I read that article too durhamjen, many of the Syrians were very wealthy by UK standards, and although this isnt necessarily relevant, it does rather make a lie of the claim by some that 'These people' are only coming here for the benefits; yeah right, it is obvious that you would leave three houses to get £35 a week in food vouchers. I can honestly see a return to poor law in this country if we, the people who pay for benefits, dont do something ( no, I dont know what), we will return to officers coming into the home of an applicant to assess whether people are 'worthy' of benefits, and whether they should sell some belongings first before they get any welfare. The right wing press pump out rubbish about flat screen tv and mobile phones; a simple fact is that if you are a tenant on HB then BT are unwilling to install a telephone line without a significant cash deposit, thus most people on lower incomes have mobile phones as the only way of having a telephone. A minor point, but very relevant in the whole slow, insidious demonising of people claiming benefits.

You think Germany does not have the same problems?

You sound like my sister Margaret, she is always telling me where this country is going wrong and not giving people enough. She lives in Germany so it does not affect her but feels qualified to tell us how we should act.