Tory welfare cuts will impoverish 200,000 children next year and more than 600,00 in 2020

Excellent post, elegran.

What you say is true Elegran - it's the small and medium businesses (SMEs) the ones that grow, that will grow the UK economy. However it is easier said than done for governments to support them. The Tory answer is to keep the owner's income tax low. End of story.
Maybe the UK public have a part to play here - if we support smaller rather than larger businesses we keep the money in the local economy. Instead we flock to large multinational chains to do our spending and the profit - and many of the jobs - goes to remote shareholders, or foreign owners.
Our high street has a few dozen shops and the only chains are 2 banks and a bookie. This is very unusual in the UK today I think.

DJ I apologise for missing the initial reference to 'pot to piss in' and attributing it to you.

From being self-employed to taking in extra workers is one that could help increase employment opportunitues.

It's a big step for, say, a good electrician (or plumber, carpenter, joiner, plasterer) to go from being a one-man enterprise to growing his business.

How many of us know a great 'builder' but we have to wait weeks or even months to get him in? My own builder, has too much work in the pipeline and would love to take on an apprentice, a school leaver perhaps, but has little idea of how he could do that, train someone up, pay his wages, NI, etc., and still manage his own business.

We were just talking about this yesterday.

I find it very depressing interesting that there are dozens of threads/posts on how to get rid of poverty by increasing benefit payments out of the money gained by getting everything due out of taxpayers (I don't disagree with doing that BTW - before I'm jumped on)

However, when I started a thread on how to improve things in other ways too, there were only a few contributors, notably some GN owners of small businesses, (none of whom seem like bloated capitalist bosses).

These are the very people who could be providing more productive jobs, but they are not the people with most time and energy left over for demonstrating, protesting, petitions, and filling the forum pages with their views.

they can bloody well work like most of us. If they haven't got the brains to do a proper job then they can clean toilets or scrub floors.

I am just catching up on this thread and feel quite shocked that anyone should think that comment was OK. Obviously anyone can say what they like but ... actually I am lost for words.

AS the owner of a small cleaning business can I say that I am disgusted at the offensive comments made by you ethelbags. My staff are not thick, or stupid or lazy, they are hard working people fitting in work in between raising their families and looking after elderly parents too in some cases. You are a truly prejudiced person and should be ashamed of your comments. Now, I have to get back to work, I have got a payroll to meet and vat returns to complete.

Yes, I must say, I think the comment by ethelbags is pretty dreadful!! The assumption that people who do menial (can I say that as I don't want to sound patronising) tasks are somehow brainless and to be regarded as a lesser being is not nice. Perhaps you didn't mean the comment to sound the way it did I can only hope so! Years ago when times were hard, I did all sorts of what could be described as casual jobs, these included packing shelves in a Warehouse (night shift) elderly lady next doors housework including toilet! working in the local chippy, again evenings to fit in round family commitments, and cleaning council offices to name but a few! I don't remember anyone looking down their nose at me! Perhaps they did and I just didn't notice!!!
When DH and I had our own small business, we had work experience trainees (anyone remember this government scheme?) with us at various times. Some it worked well, one or two not so well. By and large though it was good. One young chap in particular went from us to a full time job where he did extremely well. His parents came to thank us personally for all the help and confidence we had given him during the time that he was with us. We really missed him, but were very glad for him. Could this scheme be resurrected? maybe not, too expensive I guess.

Elegran You say:

"These are the very people who could be providing more productive jobs, but they are not the people with most time and energy left over for demonstrating, protesting, petitions, and filling the forum pages with their views."

As a person who goes on protests, signs petitions and contributes to Gransnet political forums, I take exception to that rather scornful remark.

I believe I (and I'm sure many other politically active people) play my part in contributing to this country. At the age of 65, having worked almost continuously in the public and private sector since I was 17, I am not likely to open a business. But I do help with child care, volunteer in my local primary school, and (at the expense of appearing a bit mad to passers by) pick up bagsful of rubbish every day when I take my dog for a walk.

I think the majority of gransnetters would not argue with the point that we should support local and British businesses and, indeed, I endeavour to do so. But when multinationals are getting away with using various devices to shield them from paying taxes, it is small and medium sized businesses that suffer because they do not benefit from such arrangements. This is a political issue and no amount of self-sufficiency on the part of individuals and endeavour on the part of small employers can change this without government action. That is why we need people to campaign via organisations like UK Uncut.

Well, you could argue all these points uphill downdale and still never come to a satisfactory conclusion that pleases everyone, so it's probably best left. I think a lot of us have worked hard all our lives which has inevitably coloured our outlook and attitudes one way or the other which can make the meeting of minds difficult.

But they don't do protests and demonstrations. So the things that they would be protesting and demonstrating about don't get as much publicity as some others. No need for you to take exception.

Yes some of us don't have a 'pot to piss in' as the saying goes but we battle on, we have to pay out taxes

Being pedantic here djen but I think ethel said she doesn't have a 'pot to piss in' but you argued that she does in fact 'have a pot to piss in' - quote:
You are prejudiced, ethel. You can take that how you like, and so can anyone else. You have a pot to piss in

How do you know that?
What do you know about any of us? Apart from what we post on here which could be a complete fabrication of course.

kittysjones.wordpress.com/2015/10/12/employment-and-support-allowance-another-mean-cut-from-ids-sheila-gilmore/

think-left.org/2015/10/13/economic-inequality-explained/

Hard to believe this is about America.Shows how close we are getting.

Just read the first link Jen and this strikes home:

The Government’s policy on ‘sickness benefits’ is framed on the assertion that previous governments ‘dumped’ people on these benefits who never worked again. For their own good they needed to be re-tested on a new basis. Many people would then be returned to the labour market and spending on the benefit would be cut. The trouble is that numbers haven’t reduced much, and projected savings haven’t been made. But rather than review the basis on which their policy was built, it appears that the Government is simply going to cut by £30 per week the benefits of many of those its own test has found unfit for work for the time being.

What next? This attack on the poor and disabled is just ideological; it is doing nothing for the economy or for the people concerned who are just poorer than they already were.

I dont know how true it was gracesgran but there were tales of GPs in areas of high unemployment, areas such as where all the coal mines were closed down and there was no work at all, who would sign people off sick, especially blue collar workers of late middle age who were highly unlikely to ever work again. As with governments of all persuasions, this also helped to massage figures, so in this instance, there was no huge impact on the unemployment rate as the individuals were being paid long term sickness benefit. I hate the way that sick and vulnerable people, or simply people who just cannot find work, are being pilloried and blamed for the situation they find themselves in. However, all things are not black and white, and I do acknowledge that some individuals have milked the system. These few individuals should be dealt with, but are not a reason for demonising all claimants. There are some here, even on GN who write about people on benefits as if they are some kind of sub species and I find it disgusting; none of us know when our lives can change and we may need help either short term or long term.

voxpoliticalonline.com/2015/10/14/sanctions-are-founded-on-tory-psychobabble-you-cant-incentivise-people-by-starving-them-politics-and-insights/

I think the link about America is you-tube, Gracesgran, about six minutes long.

Just been sent this about the interaction between the DWP and NHS.

www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/22153

Note the people gaining out of this are in private companies.

Not just children losing out, although there could be children losing their motability cars as well.

www.welfareweekly.com/welfare-cuts-two-hundred-disabled-people-lose-motability-car-each-week/

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/13/kinship-carers-risk-poverty-debt-welfare-cuts-family-rights-group

I think that a lot of you have picked me up wrongly, I have worked as a cleaner of toilets, offices, shops schools, temping when my DD was little. The hours fitted. I am referring to how other people see such jobs. Many people would rather be on benefit than lower themselves to do such jobs and this is what I was referring to. Some people are not capable of doing anything else than menial work and I was often looked down on as 'just the cleaner'.
One employer said ' would you not fancy a better job on the nursing side (I was cleaning in a nursing home) you can do better than this'. I refused as I wanted time off to study. He was making a judgement that cleaning was inferior was he not.

Also not 'having a pot to piss in' meant not having any money . By my income I am well under the poverty level but Im not on benefits and I wouldn't claim them anyway.

However I think many people are demonising me just because I disagree and that is not the point of civilised discussion so to the insult throwers, 'sod off' and to the rest ' I hope you realise this discussion wont ever be resolved there are too many Lady Bountiful 's who have only ever seen real life from the protection of a loving husband with a fat salary.
This is my last word on any social or political discussion. Its just not worth the bullying and nastiness.

I just don't think that it's true ethelbags that many people would rather be on benefit than lower themselves to do such jobs. There will be some but I am sure many on here have gone out and done jobs they would rather not have done and some will have done one, two or three jobs when the need arises. That is what "many" people do. People staying on benefits are in the minority.

I live in a rich income, low wage area (care and hospitality the main jobs with many living here but earning well in our nearest city or London, etc.) I meet my mothers carers on a frequent basis and am always amazed what they have done, their qualifications, etc. They do what they need to do and they do it well and with a great kindness. That is what most people are like. There will be a few who are working the system - that is what happens to systems. You cannot blame the people it is systems that fail.

"“Tell me how you measure me and I will tell you how I will behave. If you measure me in an illogical way… do not complain about illogical behaviour…”

So, you change the system but you do not do what the government is doing - change the system and probably put even more people in a position where working harder than MPs is just not worth-while.

Ethelbags , why say - haven't the brains to do a proper job ? I think you feel uncomfortable that you hurled this insult without thinking it was offensive , it hurt me. Pity you couldn't have apologised but you tried to wriggle and blame others for not understanding what you claim you meant .

Ethelbags you say about the bullying and nastiness. As others have said, I think you were quite nasty and insulting to people who, through no fault of their own, have to do the jobs you talk about, saying only those with no brains do them.

Interestingly, Gracesgran, I think that was one of the phrases John McDonnell used - people who work harder than MPs.

It may have stuck in my mind.