Attacks in Paris

djen you're back!! are you OK?

Have you been on a retreat as well, durhamjen?

Thought we'd been rather link-free recently...

stopwar.org.uk/index.php/news/john-pilger-the-root-causes-of-terrorism-and-what-we-can-do-about-it

No I doubt it .

I think the work has to be done on the Labour benches to gain enough votes but there is too much argy bargy going on between them at the moment so he would probably not get the support.

It is still the case this should be a UN backed coalition and it is getting closer but not quick enough. Only then might enough Labour MP's and Tory rebels back the fight into Syria.

Cameron would be defeated at the moment and without support he will have to let others do it without full UK support.

DC is quite entitled to go ahead off his own bat, regardless what parliament think about it. Wonder if he would?

Watch Camerons 'Statement on the G20 and Paris Attacks' in Parliament yesterday if you want to know what has been said by both the ' Cameron and the Opposition Benches' if you are interested. It was yesterday.

Interesting stuff if you like to keep up with the truth and like to work things out for yourself and not rely on commentators/ spin/ political bias.

David Cameron is talking about the legality of military action now on the BBC news.

Very good post Luckygirl.
But when we have had a thread before[I cant remember if I started it or not, I think I did], about
^ and it is through our intelligence services that we will defeat them.^
there were very few people, if I remember correctly, who would shop their family member to the police if they thought they were up to all sorts.
In my opinion, unless people would do that, it is going to make it that much harder, and that much slower to catch them.

First find your "bastard" petra.

"We are all groping in the dark trying to find a civilised way of dealing with IS"
I'm not. I can think of several ways of dealing with the evil bastard.

Thank you Anya, POGS and Luckygirl - for such measured and succinct responses - well thought out, well written and, I'm sure - well received by many on here.

I think between the two of them POGS and Luckygirl have just about summed it up for me, especially POGS' comments about NATO and the list of three requirements or conditions from Luckygirl.

Good post POGS.

We do remember them, and have just had a thread where we talked about them.

it occurs to me that, dreadful and shocking though the atrocities in France are, the life - and death - of westerners is somehow of greater value and importance than that of others. We should also remember the bombings and shootings of innocent people in countries a bit further away. We are all human beings after all, and we should not forget it.

Agree Luckygirl

We are all groping in the dark trying to find a civilized way of dealing with IS and the terrifying fundamentalism that is sweeping the muslim world and directed at the west.

Some principles stand out for me:

- the response of the west must be within international law
- it must have an eye to the long term consequences and not just a short term response to atrocities
- it must avoid showy actions intended to make the point that we will not be cowed

I believe that the central plank of our response needs to be through intelligence and minutely targeted action, because, as others have rightly pointed out, IS is not a country. IS are hidden and covert, and it is through our intelligence services that we will defeat them. DC is right to be increasing the strength of our intelligence services.

In the meantime our best response must be to live our lives as normal: to go to concerts and football matches, to embrace tolerance of all races and religions, and to show by example that our way of life is to be cherished.

Everybody seems to forget IS as we know it today was started in 1999. JAMA AT AL-TAWHID WAL-JIHAD.

The invasion of Iraq happened in 2003.

We know that Blair 'lied' to parliament with weapons of mass destruction /sexed up documents and I hope the likes of Blair and Alistair Campbell get their just reward but Chilcot will probably dumb it down, I hope not.

The invasion of Iraq is widely viewed as the reason for IS but it is not, it did however allow the cause to flourish and subsequent removal of the vile dictators such as Gadaffi and Saddam Hussein has allowed this. It is forgotten by so many that the likes of Gadaffi and Hussein ruled by fear, murder, torture and genocide and there was a real and present danger that Libya was going to see lives lost on a massive scale. Some say the West should have kept their noses out , some see the desire to help those in danger but whatever your view we are dealing with the worst of all outcomes for the West, the rise of the extremists to dominate the world and for the desire of the Islamic State/Caliphate.

As Anya says IS is not a country, at this time! Since the Iraq/Afghanistan wars the various factions of Islamic extremist groups such as Al qeada/Moujahadin etc. have widened their scope and they were not addressed. Their desire for an Islamic State/Caliphate is now so well funded, intelligent , numbered and in place throughout the world we cannot look at beginning to defeat IS without the world uniting against it.

Russia is now looking to be working closer with other countries since the G20 in Antalya but the United Nations must get a back bone and so must all the peoples of the world because the desire for the Caliphate is not only gainging momentum it is an imminent threat to all of us , it has been for years .

Time to take our heads out the sand and it will mean lives will be lost but lives will be lost and are being so on a daily basis because of the barbarity of IS but we are being shielded by their horrors and express our empathy and disgust but it will not stop IS will it.

We express our disgust but if we saw the piles of slaughtered bodies, the barbaric murders taking place daily, the life of the children and young women being used as sex slaves we might start to fear a little more what the desire for the Islamic State is, a murderous regime that hates us all in the West, who we are, what we are, our culture, our existence, they want to wipe us and Paris could well have been London/Manchester/Birmingham .

Who are you referring to, luckyfour?
It's really better to be open with those you disagree with, rather than making veiled references o other posters.

Who decides what is appropriate on any thread? If someone feels strongly about something this should be a safe place for their thoughts and comments to be aired. Some of you are very judgemental.

freddy I wish I knew

The 'casualties of war' indeed include those beheaded by IS Anniebach thank you for reminding us of that, and also those burned to death by them in cages.

Should we include the rape of women and children too? Yes, I think so.

And those killed in Kenya, Paris, Mumbai, Peshawar....... the list goes on doesn't it?

Anya what a great analysis! Only thing left is the ones here in the UK. How do we stop its spread and growth here?

With mass bombing there will not be many left to be free of beheading, is having your body blown to bits a better death than beheading? Not forgetting if limbs are blown off there is little medical help for the maimed

History indicates periodic mass migration does occur