I think this man should be chrged with extreme child abuse

Babies are dying in refugee camps, so if he had stayed put and the baby had died would it still be his fault for not getting his family out?

Babies are dying in the camps because often their mothers have been killed and their other female relatives are struggling to look after them. Babies are dying because their menfolk are refusing to allow aid workers into some camps, the mothers were forced to use polythene bags as nappies resulting in sores so bad the babies required hospitalisation. Women were desperate for help, men trying to refuse help from the aid workers. It took a great deal of persuasion to allow workers in to rescue babies.

If you remember, on some of the larger boats coming across the Mediterranean, women and children were locked below and men on deck. When these boats sank, the women and children didn't stand a chance and the men were rescued.
There was a thread about those poor little boys who died along with their mother, their father survived. They were not in a refugee camp, they had a house (albeit a poor one) in Turkey but wanted a better life and would not wait to go via the proper route to Canada.

I don't know what the answers are, the whys and wherefores and the wrongs and rights, but I can understand why jingls is upset and angry.

There are a lot of people reading this thread who agree with Jings. The difference is: she's the only one with the balls to voice it.

Beg to differ Lucky (and somewhat miffed at you saying no one would know what we might do in these circumstances). I accept that you wouldn't know what to do but I know Turkey, well. I've visited parts that no tourist usually visits because my daughter lived there for two years. I know the generosity of the Turkish people.

Had I escaped civil war by crossing from Syria into Turkey, with 7 children, one of whom was days old, my decision would be to stay put.

I guess it depends on the conditions that were found in the first "safe country" and the persuasive skills of the traffickers. None of us know what we might do in these extreme circumstances.

Yes, I'd stay in the first safe country too. Many of these are boating from Turkey .... why? Why not stay there until things start to ease. It's a bit like lemmings.

This is tragic. And all down to one man, Assad. All this blood on his hands.

I heard it all on the Today programme loopy. (Don't have tv on during the day)

I think it would be a deterrent. A deterrent is needed. And in my opinion, would be justified.

A camp is a safer option than a boat at sea.

trisher No. (sorry if I missed your question before)

Going to bow out now. I have said all I wanted to say. And I stand by it.

Totally agree with Anniebach

We are all angry Jingle, my anger is directed to arms dealers, banks, governments who all play a part in the deaths of these children and their mother and all who drown, it is not directed to one man who didn't abandoned his family to seek a better life for himself but took his family with him and placed his trust in empty promises , and dreams and hopes of a Europe where they would find a welcome. Wrong on that too poor man

I'm not at all sure that this poor wife would have been consulted about these arrangements, almost certainly her husband would have made this decision, as almost always happens in the male orientated Middle East. I don't quite know what to think about this particular incident. On the face of it it was a completely absurd thing to do, but I suppose they were desperate to escape the horrors of the war in Syria. These deaths are quite shocking, and surely it would have been better to go overland, particularly with such very young children. None of them would have been able to swim except the father (maybe) and I do very slightly wonder how he was rescued and who by? The women and children always drown, the men rarely seem to. I'm not saying anything. But there again- Who knows?!

So, so sad to see that poor father whose lost his entire family.

Perhaps you should be watching the poor man on BBC news jingl
He was told by the smugglers that it was 15 minutes to Greece, he calls them 'traitors' and he was trying to get his family out of Syria because of ISIS.

How can anything be achieved by accusing him of extreme child abuse and throwing him into prison! Wtf would that achieve?

Yes, I'm too but at the smugglers- it's them who should be accused.

Just watched him talking about it on T. I think his words of warning will have more effect than imprisoning him would. I'll ask the question again jbf-if the mother had been the survivor would you want to see her imprisoned?

Him being jailed might be just what is needed to stop these men risking their family's lives in this way. Especially with winter coming on.

lg I suppose it depends on how narrow a view you have of the term 'child abuse'.

Anger ab. That's what prompted me to start the thread.

If you really don't like this thread, you could contact GNHQ.

Jingle, you said it was almost too distressing for you, I just questioned why you chose to start a thread on something almost too distressing for you.

I would think everyone on this forum are distressed , some choose to condemn a man bereft , you want him in jail , would this ease your almost too distressed to bear pain? No it wouldn't .

I don't eat mince pies

I do not think there will be a single reader of this thread who is not equally distressed as you Jbf at the thought of these poor children and their mother drowning in such appalling circumstances. The only difference is that some of us acknowledge that we cannot know exactly what drove them to go, to make this decision, nor can we assume that the poor man who has lost his whole family is an abuser, which is a bizarre idea to my mind.

The urge to blame is a strong one, but in this case I think it is misdirected.

Threads can't always be about how often you ash your socks ab. Or where the best mince pies are to be purchased. I would have thought you would have understood that.

Call it anger if you feel the children are beyond compassion.

whitewave have you read my link re Turkish camps for refugees?

But not too distressing to start a thread about Jingle?

These people are part of my daily life, you wouldn't understand this

.....so you pay someone for a place on a boat heading to goodness knows where and goodness knows what? The boat sinks and your wife and children can't swim but fortunately you can.

Imagine this. You are in a refugee camp where there us malnutrition and disease. Children are dying. Winter is only getting worse and you have no warm clothing for the children. You have heard that most refugees are successfully getting to Europe even though some die on the way.

You have of course discussed this with your wife,family and friends and finally decide rightly or wrongly it is worth the risk as your children have no future where they are.

Now imagine this the boat overturns in a rough sea and there is utter chaos. You desperately look for your children - you may actually save another's child or adult, but the tide separates you all.
You are rescued and then find the truth about your children.

The west then charge you with child abuse!!!!!

ab don't read it if it is that distressing to you. Get on with your own everyday life. That's what I am going to do. Because I find the thought of terrified infants drowning in cold dark seas almost too distressing to bear.

The children are dead, they have no need for compassion, the father does.

And we should find compassion for the children who are alive, living in countries being bombed , living in camps or on coastlines hoping for freedom

I too have compassion for the poor children who had no choice whatsoever to get onto that boat. The father would have made the decision. I would imagine the poor mother drown trying to save her children. No surprise at all that the father was the only survivor.