Cameron's Christmas message

Nobody is on a 'mission' to undermine the NHS, that's ridiculous and simply not true. The truth is that the NHS is a bottomless pit into which more and more money is needed, and now has to finance more and more complicated treatments than were ever envisaged when it was set up all those years ago. The money has to come from somewhere, either from taxation or other sources. What else is the answer? Tax the rich I hear you say! but the rich whoever they are from DC's late father to Trade Union leaders make sure that their riches are tied up out of harms way, as they see it; even Tony Benn made sure that his family's wealth stayed intact after his death!!!! Nobody knows what the answers are in this very complicated world we live in, there are no quick fixes but to suggest that any government is deliberately undermining any national institution is just silly.

Where have you been living, niggly?
Letwin said that once a Tory government got in there would be no NHS within five years.
You must have heard that, unless you've been living in a cave.

Jeremy Hunt co-authored a book on how to privatise the NHS.
Have you not heard about that either, or do you just not listen?

If no-one is trying to undermine the NHS niggly why was a top-down reorganisation that cost millions undertaken against all advice? Why did they say death was more likely if you were admitted at a weekend? Why did Hunt try to say doctors weren't working weekends? (social media scotched that one!). Why did they drive junior doctors to the brink of strike action? Why have they cut bursaries to nursing training?
I also have issues with this business of costs. When the NHS was set up having an operation meant a lengthy stay in hospital, numerous visits of a nurse after that and a huge long recuperation period. It must have cost. Now the same operation is done on a 48hour hospital stay- OK more procedures and more people but also less support.

The simple answer ( as opposed to paranoid ones) MONEY.

So how is it to be paid for? Taxation? Not from the rich whatever their political persuasion! Of course private money will have to be put into the NHS, but any government who starts charging patients would be very unlikely to win another election, certainly not in the short term, and let's face it 'winnng' at all costs is the name of the game, and charging the sick would not be a very good political move!

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/29/junior-doctors-implement-strike-action-plans-nhs-government-talks-falter

Junior doctors still likely to strike, trisher. They have until 4 p.m. Monday.

Yes, niggly, the rich should pay more in taxes. What's wrong with that?
They do not even need to pay more than they should, just own up to fiddling by various means and pay the amount required by country-by-country reporting.
As Cameron says at least once a week, it's the right thing to do.
They do actually use the NHS as much as the rest of us. Even Cameron used the NHS. I wouldn't fancy Hunt's chances of going to his local A&E any more, though.

Thanks dj. I notice the government are still going on about making it a 7day NHS. Thought they might have given up on that one because most of us know it already is.
I wonder if Cameron thinks the doctors are going to be his version of the miners' strike?

Of course they should dj, particularly inheritance tax, which the wealthy whoever they are seem particularly adept at avoiding, at times causing raised eyebrows in disbelief. It's not only 'Tory toff's or the PM's wealthy pals who have a natty scheme up their sleeves!! Extrodinary how some people live in such style and seem to leave so little money. Smacks of hypocrisy really, like a lot of 'don't do as I do, but do as I say' politicians particularly left wing ones!

Things are going badly wrong in NHS England because Hunt and Osborne are on a mission to undermine it

So it is very puzzling why Welsh NHS patients are being sent over to England in droves to have treatment because they can't get it in Wales, and Welsh NHS patients are being advised by their GPs to go for private consultations and treatment if they have either the means or belong to any kind of health top-up scheme.

You've been reading newspapers owned by foreign billionaires again haven't you
Do I get an apology for that? Very, very rude, untrue and you know nothing about me, what I read - I even may read some of the very many links so kindly put on GN too.

You do not know how many members of my family work in the NHS, how they work perfectly well for the benefit of patients until new 'managers' come along and start interfering, how senior managers are driving out valuable consultants who then decide to emigrate and leave their families.

So don't presume anything about me, and I won't presume that you have relatives in the top managerial echelons of the NHS.

Why did they say death was more likely if you were admitted at a weekend?

Such hyprocisy! Death was more likely when Labour were running the NHS, especially at Stafford Hospital.

Short memories, some people, or perhaps you had no experience of it.

They do not even need to pay more than they should, just own up to fiddling by various means and pay the amount required by country-by-country reporting.

Yes, I agree with you djen. They should be ashamed (or taken to court).

Sorry, particularly left wing ones?
What rubbish. Where did Cameron get his wealth? Where did Osborne get his?
I never said Labour politicians did not do it.

Anyway, what I said is that all people in this country, those who own property as well as those who work here, should all pay their taxes on money made in this country. Does that not make sense to you? Because it certainly does to me.
Then we can afford to have a properly funded, properly managed health service free at the point of use.
Have you not thought how ridiculous it is that the government is saying that they will give the NHS £8 billion providing it saves £22 billion, when there is a funding gap of £30 billion?
It does not make mathematical sense, unless you are on a mission to undermine the NHS.

Trisher there is going to be another interesting development from what Osborne and Cameron are doing to party funding.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/01/labour-could-stop-cooperating-tories-protest-party-funding-cuts

Not just Labour, all opposition parties. They reckon that all MPs will have to turn up for every vote, which will mean that there will be less time for each bill, and fewer bills being passed.
Lets hope democracy wins.

Ill treatment in homes for the elderly is on the increase, fault of the Tory government ?

Things were going wrong with the NHS before Cameron became PM.

Note: do not jump to any conclusions about my political inclinations or my voting history on the basis of that statement of plain fact; your conclusions will most likely be wrong.

New hospitals were built during the time of the last labour government , now hospitals , care homes and rehab centres are being closed and as for mental health services !

High rainfall, fault of the Tory Government?
I am almost wishing ( but not quite) that a Labour Government under Saint Corbyn will get in next time, then I can enjoy complaining on these threads about all that is wrong in society and blaming it on him.

Things have been going wrong with the NHS since very soon after it first got going. The need for money expanded exponentially along with the expansion of its remit. If there had been a different funding framework in place to start with there would be different systems now to pay for it, as there are in some other countries which have more efficient health schemes and don't seem to cater worse for their patients, but the concept of "free at the point of delivery" won't be altered at this stage.

A while ago, we had some very interesting posts about government health schemes in various countries. Can anyone dig up a link to that thread?

Actually, roseq, the statistics used for hospital deaths were 2009/10, so were under a Labour administration.

fullfact.org/blog/2015/dec/health_secretary_excess_weekend_deaths-50279

I wonder why there are no more up-to-date ones.

www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h3575

Criticism of the statistics.

That's good criticism, dj. Thanks for the link.

Here is more interesting stuff.

for people who don't want to read the links, the essence, as I understand it, is that those statistics were used badly (what's new?) and the usual stuff about no actual information about causation.

Knowing the causation would illuminate the raw statistics I would guess that anyone admitted at the weekend could be as an emergency, or something which could not have been predicted. That could influence the death rate. So could all manner of things.

Comparison of health services www.health.org.uk/sites/default/files/HowDoesTheNHSCompareWithHealthSystemsInOtherCountries.pdf

A very interesting report, Lilygran (I've only skimmed over it so far)

The GN thread I was referring to had a series of posts about the way healthcare is funded in other countries. That would make interesting reading too.

Where did Tony Benn get his wealth? (and, unbelievably, hung onto it!!!) where did Harriet Harman get hers?!! All political parties have their extremely rich members with inherited wealth, privileged upbringing, and education, not just 'Tories', so don't pretend that it's only conservatives who have benefited in this way. However, I can see that it's difficult to reconcile this fact with far left politics.

But it's all out of date.
The statistics used in most cases are before the Tory government and before April 1st 2013 when the new NHS came into being with the top-down reorganisation organised by Lansley. So we cannot say how the NHS performs now compared to when Labour was in power as there are no up-to-date numbers.
The fact that it was doing so well compared to other countries shows how well it was run under Labour, not how poorly it is performing now, or even in the last five years.