Times Tables by heart?

We aren't really far apart on this trisher. I do feel that learning tables, with a good level of understanding, is important but that there is no intrinsic value in chanting aloud together.
Coming at it from different angles is the way to do it.

If you are struggling to compute basic numbers then they will struggle with using them in mathematics.

I totally agree that knowing your times tables is a very useful tool in ones numeracy toolbox. However it is just one of very many skills that makes a person numerate and a good mathematician.

Over focus on one aspect or skill, especially if it is to be used to publicly 'judge' a school's effectiveness can lead to a reduction in focus on other equally important skills that are not used as a public measure.

This is why many schools and teachers argue against the testing (NOT the teaching!) of a single skill or narrow aspect of the curriculum.

It was the same with phonics.. so much time is now spent teaching just phonics that other aspects of becoming a good writer are ignored. Phonics are useful but not the only thing a person needs to become good at written communication.

Maths is really a misnomer as far as primary school children are concerned. When I was at junior school it was called arithmetic, maths came later at senior school. Arithmetic is really what most of us will use in every day life. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions and percentages are arithmetic. Times tables are an integral part of understanding the basics. The basics in arithmetic are what employers say are lacking from school leavers these days.

My childrens suffered from being taught arithmetic very badly. When it became apparent that they would need tutoring to get through their GCSE maths, I consulted their maths teacher at their senior school for advice on private tutoring. During our discussion I told the maths teacher that in my opinion, the reason why children needed tutoring was that there was very little consolidation when teaching basics at primary. For example, a few days on say fractions then they moved on to another topic, which worked well for the most able pupils, but not for those less able, by the time they came back to fractions they had forgotten it. When I was at junior school we would do fractions or whatever for what seemed like weeks on end, until it eventually went in. That teacher agreed with me and also pointed out that a large percentage of pupils had private maths tuition even though our school was a high achieving comprehensive. My kids did get a pass with the help of the tutor but still think they, like many others, suffer from not having been taught the basics properly, such as learning by rote, which might be boring in some instances, but I think many us are of the opinion that doing so has served us well in life.

Times Tables are only part of Arithmetic.
Arithmetic is only a small part of Mathematics.
I liked arithmetic
I liked geometry
I hated algebra

Times tables and mental arithmetic are a useful tool in everday life.
It gets young children used to the idea of numbers and speeds up the process of thinking numerically.

Can no-one else see a times table as a picture? Please don't tell me it's just me.

X post Terribull

Of course it's just one of the skills you need to be mathematically literate. Other skills are available!

I'd disagree that mathematics as opposed to arithmetic is taught at primary level. A good Maths syllabus/scheme will include basic mathematical skills. It's one of the reasons that calculators can be used at primary level - to allow higher level thinking skills to be practised.

If they only learn them by rote and are then expected to know when and how to use them, that is no use. That is why many of us now have no use for the meaningless recital that was dinned into us.

They should have built a table themselves by arranging things - anything, lego bricks, marbles, pebbles - into a rectangle like soldiers on a parade ground - three rows of two and count them to see that there are six and so on, so that the evidence is there before their eyes. It takes time and ingenuity to make the relationship clear to them, but after it "gets there", then they can learn the "short-cut" of the table and be able to use it. after building the lower tables, most children should both be able to reconstruct the physical image and be able to learn the table just as they learned the finger rhymes when they started to count.

Nothing cements the meaning of the tables like using hands and eyes to illustrate it.

Exercise for GNers using 25 chocolates
1) Arrange 25 chocolates in a perfect square, with the same number of rows as there are columns. Remove one from a corner and eat it.

2) Take the rest of that column and move it to become another row. It will fit perfectly. So 5 X 5 =25 and 6 X 4 -24 in other words, (5+1) X (5-1) +1 = 5 squared Or in algebra terms

3) Eat more chocolates until there are 16 left (meanwhile read again what you did, and contemplate the mathematical truth). Repeat part 1) and part 2) noticing that again (x +1) X (x -1) = xsquared

4) Eat more chocolates until there are 9 left, and repeat parts 1) and 2) Contemplate how sickly sweet all this chocolate is, but it is still true that (x +1) X (x -1) = xsquared

5) Finish up the remaining chocolates. You have now eaten a whole box of chocolates and learnt a bit of algebra.

Hate to say it but I have eaten too much chocolate over Christmas-this maths exercise will have to wait!

Nobody is saying knowing tables is a bad thing. I think we all agree that knowing tables and having good recall is a 'good thing'

My objection is to the focus /highlight on this one aspect as if it is more important than other skills. it will reduce the curriculum further (art/music/sports/ history/geography/general knowledge etc etc etc already struggle to find space.)

You could do it with indigestion tablets trisher (That isn't envy, its biliousness)

There seem to be many adults who have no idea of what numbers mean. I was another one who learnt tables by rote, but the other day I needed to work out how much per tonne for gas when 1.446 T. cost 2460€.
I had to ring son no. 2 and ask him - he's a maths teacher. He worked it out at once. I knew it was some kind of division, but what to divide by what?
So I agree with Trisher, especially as they all probably have a calculator on their Iphones.

Yes, all that repetition of the same kind of sum is fine for getting practice, but knowing what sum is needed is more difficult. We also used to do stacks and stacks of "problems" which had first to be assessed to work out what to do, before you got down to doing it. Real life contains more problems than repetitions, unless you work with a narrow range of calculations which are always the same.

That maths with the aid of chocs is right up my street!

Shouldn't think this will cut into other curriculum areas at all, as it's on the curriculum already - I thought people knew that - it's just the testing in Y6 that's new. As it's a computer based test I can't see it taking that long anyway.

My objection to the new test is that it's perfectly easy to be teacher assessed, which is the current system anyway.

Just seen a typo in the exercise - 6 X 4 -24 should of course have been 6 X 4 = 24 As no-one noticed, I assume that no-one has been trying it.

It won't hurt the little buggers darlings. I can still remember some of mine.

That's my point about calculators Elegran - you can hand someone a calculator to solve a problem but often they wouldn't know what numbers to feed in and which buttons to push!!

Perhaps the answer is 0 Elegran.

Oops Elegran x'd posts! I thought that was the point you were trying to make; a deliberate mistake

AND the little buggers darlings are having to learn them already. Why would anyone think it's new?

When I studied later in life I soon realised I was perfectly capable of getting to grips with Mathematics. However, as a child I spent many a Maths lesson in a state of terror hoping against hope I would not make a fool of myself with my times tables - blind recall was never my strong point and I have since realised I was mildly dyslexic so being asked to read a question aloud was also hugely challenging for me. The result of all this fear and pressure to perform within the strict and old fashioned parameters of the 50s and 60s turned me into a nervous child with little confidence in my abilities.
Children learn in many different ways, what works for one will be a huge challenge for others and vice versa.

No, Anya it was an unforced error. I should have caught it, as I lost the whole post at one point for some unfathomable reason, and had to start again.

I can do my tables up to 5 times , at that stage I was in hospital for three weeks with Scarlet Fever , when I got back to school, several weeks later , every one was up t 12 time . No allowance was made for my not being at school and I got slapped for mistakes , I never learnt past the 5times tables and really find it a handicap ........... mind you I learnt spellings by rote and can't spell either !! Both lackings are a real pain when watching Countdown

Well it just proves that someone did rest your post after all Elegran

As with all learning regardless of whether it is tables, spelling or something else; the best results are achieved through multi sensory methods.
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