Loss of nurses burseries

Why did they get rid of SEN and SRN? Seems a good system to me.

Why did they get rid of SEN and SRN? Seems a good system to me.

Oh why does it do that?! Takes ages to load and then comes out twice!

I agree Anya, there was a time we had SEN,SRN and auxiliary , the auxiliary didn't carry out the duties of the SRN and the SRN didn't carry out the duties of the auxiliary , the SEN assisted both , it worked

I am an old SRN. I received a very small wage whilst in training. I spent several weeks in the School of Nursing followed by several weeks on the wards including night duties and studies went on during that work. During the three years I was not allowed to choose my own holidays or days off. I was sent to wards to work there was no such thing as applying. When I qualified I realised I didn't know how to research or analyse I knew how to 'do' and I did endlessly. In order to progress to more specialised nursing I knew I needed degree level studies in the sciences particularly. In order to do this I had to pay for my own OU degree in Social Sciences and then to pay for my Masters Degree in Nursing (there is little in the budget for post basic training). To lead a large team of highly specialised nurses as I did (whilst still holding my own complex caseload of patients and manage the Business Unit (circa £3mill) be the Executive Nurse on the Board (the professional voice of Nursing at Board level)I could not have performed at that level without not only the education but the confidence it gave me. So Yes nurses do need a degree in my view.

I don't agree with the current system of predominately university based training - I think we have lost a lot of the practical skills and once qualified these have to be learnt pretty quickly. If we are training nurses to work in the NHS and we don't want to give them huge salaries, and we don't want to have to keep sending admin managers abroad to scout for nurses trained elsewhere that we then have to retrain in our system we need to make an investment in their training and charging them tuition fees, then paying them a low wage which rarely improves and then is subject to random freezes whenever the government of the day wants to save money is not an attractive proposition as a career.

On the subject of pensions can I just point out that nurses pension is 1/80th and teachers 1/60th.

That's me I'm saying no more on this subject.

I was going to mention the old system of SEN and SRN qualifications Anya which seemed to work well.
Certainly, as a patient the nurses with SEN qualifications seemed to be competent, caring and qualified enough to be left in charge of patients, although my understanding was that they had a limit to any promotion of staff nurse. Progression by undertaking a further year or two's study would seem to be sensible.
Surely not all nurses need a degree, but may want to take qualifications beyond those needed for healthcare assistant?

Engineering students often did 'sandwich courses' and were paid, spending part of their four years course working in industry. I don't know if that is the case now, this was many years ago when I was a student.

That took ages to type and load, so several posts have appeared in between!

Teetime I do understand that a very responsible job such as yours required higher qualifications, but not everyone will want (or be able) to progress to that level, nor are there that many jobs at that level.
There is a greater need for practical, caring nurses with good qualifications relevant to today's needs as well as more highly qualified people for more senior positions.

I should have said I started as a nursing auxiliary with no prospects and no hope- there are many others in that boat - they need opportunities and if they don't get the education they wont be able to take them.

Jalima As I said in a previous post certainly when my daughter trained in the 2006/9s the only difference between the diploma and the degree was a dissertation.

My daughter was 26 when she decided to go into nursing and there were a lot of mature students on her intake.

As for pensions, nurses and all others who do night shifts potentially run quite high health risks due to working nights. It's how the shift patterns etc mess with your body systems.

They seem now to employ health care assistants at far less salary than they used to get for SENs. My concern is about what level of training health care assistants get.
I would hope that nurses who specialise and get involved in such running clinics for conditions like diabetes, skin viabilty, asthma etc. get paid a little more for their extra expertise.

Nursing is a vocation not a degree course. I started my training in 1964 and we worked alongside mentors after we came out of probationer school. They say it is a lot more technical now and you need to go to college but I disagree, most things come in gradually and you adapt and learn as you work. Over the years we have all learned how to use computers and I doubt that many of us went to college to gain that knowledge.
I have actually heard the words " I don't do sick and bedpans, I have a degree " These are the kind of people that should not be allowed anywhere near a hospital.

So would you say doctors don't need a degree harrigran? Many nurses now train to a higher level and take over some of the tasks doctors used to do shouldn't they be similarly qualified? Nursing like many other professions has changed, no doubt you had different training to Florence Nightingale's nurses. Of course a nurse may have to deal with bed-pans etc but they will be doing other things that require more theoretical knowledge.

I spent 3 weeks on A&E ward and a neurological ward in a large hospital year and can't understand why anyone would go into nursing these days. I met several student nurses and got the impression that they looked at their training as a necessity to specialising later. Although most were planning to stay in the NHS (at least one was going to Australia), none were thinking about staying in general nursing where they primarily worked on wards. Agency nurses were everywhere and mainly foreign. These nurses combined efficiency with kindness. Most permanent nurses were too rushed off their feet to be like kind to patients. Often a ward would only have one permanent nurse on duty and many refused to allow this, so help would arrive from somewhere. I met two nurses I thought were in the wrong job and both were British.

There's definitely a need for nurses below degree level, but the real problem is the lack of permanent staff, not least because of the lack of continuity of care. Different agency nurses every day also puts extra pressure on permanent staff. I felt lucky not to need much nursing care, but it made me anxious to see patients waiting too long for the attention of a nurse. Who'd be a nurse?

Harrigran I don't agree with your point.
It's a vocation just like teaching is and you do need a good standard of education.

My daughter really enjoys the basic physical care bit, bathing patients and washing the hair of those who are well enough.

This is as well as her needing to know the highly technical stuff of the ITU ward she works in. Stopping confused patients from pulling out cannulas drains etc. Recognising patients in critical conditions. and much more.

It does also need care assistants trained for hospital work.

Teetime from what you say, starting as an auxiliary nurse and ending up in a very responsible position, wouldn't you say that (with a few tweaks) the 'old' system worked well?

DH and I have noticed that ward nurses seem rushed off their feet with too few nurses, especially on the emergency admissions ward, whereas, if we visit a clinic, there seem to be too many nurses working in a very leisurely fashion, walking round with a file in their hand, singing a duet (cheers us up no end though!).
In fact, one ward sister commented to me that life in the clinics is a doddle compared to the hard work of the wards. So who decides what proportion of nursing staff is needed where?

No. No grant. Father earned too much.
We also worked on the wards as well as attending lectures etc.

All I know is that a few years ago,when DD was in a large hospital local to me, I had to virtually live on the ward with her and take care of her basic needs, even when her blood and sweat stained sheets had not been changed for three days, found the linen cupboard and changed them myself.Brought fresh water to drink, and bedpan when she needed it.The nurses certainly were not rushed off their feet, but you had to wait for auxiliaries to do the 'rough stuff' and they rarely put in an appearance.African cleaners who came round once a day at odd times (male) hovered about and looked at things and pushed a grimy mop around but rarely emptied overflowing bins.All in a ward where patients had cellulitis and similar!! It Really was disgusting, and I thought to myself 'bring back the ward sister and Matron'.

I believe in Spain it is normal to go into hospital with a minder who did all the changing beds , bedpans,feeding etc while the nurses did the injections and general medication. If you didn't have family then you hired someone.

But it was never normal practice here!

Did you complain rosesarered? On the few occasions my mother hasn't received excellent care I have always raised the matter through the complaints system, usually with some ideas about improving things. I have always had a positive response and seen some of my suggestions introduced. Sometimes managers just aren't aware of what is happening.

But Galen you wouldn't have had to pay any course fees would you?

Yes, I did trisher both at the time on the ward and afterwards by letter to the hospital.No satisfactory answers forthcoming, but an apology by the hospital, which said more 'staff training' would be done. probably a generic letter sent out.

Yes! My father paid them.

Strangely though my husband didn't as he lived in Birmingham who paid the fees of any student with an university place. South Staffordshire where I lived didn't.

You must have been the exception! Everyone I knew had their fees paid by their LEA even if their parents were well off and expected to contribute to their living expenses.