Loss of nurses burseries

So would you say doctors don't need a degree harrigran? Many nurses now train to a higher level and take over some of the tasks doctors used to do shouldn't they be similarly qualified? Nursing like many other professions has changed, no doubt you had different training to Florence Nightingale's nurses. Of course a nurse may have to deal with bed-pans etc but they will be doing other things that require more theoretical knowledge.

Nursing is a vocation not a degree course. I started my training in 1964 and we worked alongside mentors after we came out of probationer school. They say it is a lot more technical now and you need to go to college but I disagree, most things come in gradually and you adapt and learn as you work. Over the years we have all learned how to use computers and I doubt that many of us went to college to gain that knowledge.
I have actually heard the words " I don't do sick and bedpans, I have a degree " These are the kind of people that should not be allowed anywhere near a hospital.

Jalima As I said in a previous post certainly when my daughter trained in the 2006/9s the only difference between the diploma and the degree was a dissertation.

My daughter was 26 when she decided to go into nursing and there were a lot of mature students on her intake.

As for pensions, nurses and all others who do night shifts potentially run quite high health risks due to working nights. It's how the shift patterns etc mess with your body systems.

They seem now to employ health care assistants at far less salary than they used to get for SENs. My concern is about what level of training health care assistants get.
I would hope that nurses who specialise and get involved in such running clinics for conditions like diabetes, skin viabilty, asthma etc. get paid a little more for their extra expertise.

I should have said I started as a nursing auxiliary with no prospects and no hope- there are many others in that boat - they need opportunities and if they don't get the education they wont be able to take them.

That took ages to type and load, so several posts have appeared in between!

Teetime I do understand that a very responsible job such as yours required higher qualifications, but not everyone will want (or be able) to progress to that level, nor are there that many jobs at that level.
There is a greater need for practical, caring nurses with good qualifications relevant to today's needs as well as more highly qualified people for more senior positions.

I was going to mention the old system of SEN and SRN qualifications Anya which seemed to work well.
Certainly, as a patient the nurses with SEN qualifications seemed to be competent, caring and qualified enough to be left in charge of patients, although my understanding was that they had a limit to any promotion of staff nurse. Progression by undertaking a further year or two's study would seem to be sensible.
Surely not all nurses need a degree, but may want to take qualifications beyond those needed for healthcare assistant?

Engineering students often did 'sandwich courses' and were paid, spending part of their four years course working in industry. I don't know if that is the case now, this was many years ago when I was a student.

I am an old SRN. I received a very small wage whilst in training. I spent several weeks in the School of Nursing followed by several weeks on the wards including night duties and studies went on during that work. During the three years I was not allowed to choose my own holidays or days off. I was sent to wards to work there was no such thing as applying. When I qualified I realised I didn't know how to research or analyse I knew how to 'do' and I did endlessly. In order to progress to more specialised nursing I knew I needed degree level studies in the sciences particularly. In order to do this I had to pay for my own OU degree in Social Sciences and then to pay for my Masters Degree in Nursing (there is little in the budget for post basic training). To lead a large team of highly specialised nurses as I did (whilst still holding my own complex caseload of patients and manage the Business Unit (circa £3mill) be the Executive Nurse on the Board (the professional voice of Nursing at Board level)I could not have performed at that level without not only the education but the confidence it gave me. So Yes nurses do need a degree in my view.

I don't agree with the current system of predominately university based training - I think we have lost a lot of the practical skills and once qualified these have to be learnt pretty quickly. If we are training nurses to work in the NHS and we don't want to give them huge salaries, and we don't want to have to keep sending admin managers abroad to scout for nurses trained elsewhere that we then have to retrain in our system we need to make an investment in their training and charging them tuition fees, then paying them a low wage which rarely improves and then is subject to random freezes whenever the government of the day wants to save money is not an attractive proposition as a career.

On the subject of pensions can I just point out that nurses pension is 1/80th and teachers 1/60th.

That's me I'm saying no more on this subject.

I agree Anya, there was a time we had SEN,SRN and auxiliary , the auxiliary didn't carry out the duties of the SRN and the SRN didn't carry out the duties of the auxiliary , the SEN assisted both , it worked

Oh why does it do that?! Takes ages to load and then comes out twice!

Why did they get rid of SEN and SRN? Seems a good system to me.

Why did they get rid of SEN and SRN? Seems a good system to me.

That's another point Grannyboots back in the day when nurses trained on the wards at least they got paid.

What's wrong with reverting to the old SEN and SRN training and then, for those who want it and are suitable, adding on a year's post qualification upgrade, in the same way that those who want to teach can do a PGCE?

Healthcare assistants with NVQ qualifications are doing a large amount of work that nurses previously did .i started my training in 1968 and am still working part-time having acquired various other nursing qualifications over the years . I was attached to a training hospital and worked on the wards during my training and had a small salary. But nurses were never classed as the professionals they were ,and I hope that the degree status will give our highly trained and dedicated nurses the credence they deserve. The less able people who wish to enter the profession can still do so as HCA's and study for NVQ which will give them the opportunity to advance if they so wish .

The training for nurses now involves studying for a degree. Many people who want to train are older not just those straight from school. With more life experience they are often more suitable candidates to do this work but the removal of bursaries will deter many. Taking on loans will just not be an option and the structure of the training means that it is not necessarily possible to take on a second job as other students can. My son's partner trained as a nurse gaining a diploma before they were phased out. She was slightly older already having children and was only able to do this because of the disbursary and other financial assistance.

If many nurses are too posh to wash, stay in the nurses stations and don't know what's going on in the ward who does the nursing?

I couldn't nurse for an hour , i recall spending months in hospital in my teens, nurses were treated with respect , now they are often treated as domestics use to be treated

My dd graduated at 37. She has worked on a busy surgical ward for two years, working 13 hour shifts (days and nights) believe me she is not 'too posh to wash'. Also has been left in charge of the ward. She did not get paid whilst training and is left with a large loan to pay off. Sadly she is thinking of moving into the community.

One of my friends DiL is a ward sister at our local hospital.everyone who comes into contact with her has nothing but praise for her. She is 51 and not being overly academic she trained as an SEN, a role long gone. Her potential was recognised and she was offered the chance to do more training ,on the job, to become an SRN. It really paid off. The role of SEN should be reintroduced.

Suzied A friend of my DD's is a fully qualified nurse, but she is German and did her exams in Germany. She is not allowed to work as a nurse in this country. She is desperately having to save money to do a further course here. Meantime she is caring for old or disabled people in their own homes.

Nursing is completely different than it was when we were young. The higher grades of nurses do need a degree. They need a huge amount of technical and medical knowledge. I would think they need to be only slightly lower than doctors!

It would be ideal if all nurses had a degree. It is very much a profession.

I do think there should be some sort of financial allowance for the time they spend working on the wards.

Nurses these days sit at nurses stations and don't know what's going on in the ward. I can't understand how the shortage of nurses will be solved by abolishing bursaries. Surely, the bursary scheme should be extended to encourage more to train? Instead, fortunes are spent on agency staff and shipping in foreign nurses. Or am I missing something?

Also, with more career opportunities opening up for young women less are choosing nursing as an option and the quality of trainees is not what it was.

The whole situation is a mess and needs a shake up.

They don't need a degree. Plenty of great nurses before degrees were introduced but rather too many 'too posh to wash' types nowadays.

Yes, nursing is much more complex these days but IMO the baby's been thrown out with the bathwate, when a so-called 'nurse' can just plonk food and drink down in front of a patient incapable of feeding thrmselves and leave them to it.

They should bring back the training on the job qualification and then add on extra courses for those who want to take on extra responsibility and have ambitions to rise in the profession. The emphasis needs to be on patient care

i don't think the lack of nurses is due to it being a degree course, it seems more likely to be down to the fact that in this country we don't train enough nurses or midwives. We get them already trained from other countries, who presumably need them.

The move to degree level training for nurses (and social workers) was an attempt, imo, to professionalise and improve the standard of training. No comment from me on whether that has been a success.

Don't shoot me down in flames, but can someone please tell my why a nurse needs a degree? When I started my training I was 26. I went for my interview, did the apptitude test, scored highly enough to do the student nursing course at my Mental Health hospital and did my training as follows: twelve weeks on the wards and two weeks in school. The course lasted three years and eight months. Out of thirteen in my set only five of us qualified, and we were all offered jobs at the end of it. I loved Nursing, but think that now the training is too academic. In my opinion, the lack of nurses is due to it being a degree course. If it had been so in my day, I would not have applied, as I went to a secondary modern school which did not do GCE exams, therefore I had no qualifications. Nursing is a vocation!

My understanding is student nurses will now have to apply for student loans like other degree students. The government said the cap on the number of bursaries available was restricting the number of student nurses, making the nursing shortage worse. The government believes more people will train as nurses using student loans than under the bursary scheme, thereby helping to solve the nursing shortage.

The problem is the average age of student nurses is 29 and many have outstanding student loans from previous degree courses which will prevent them from applying for new student loans. These students will only be entitled to claim maintenance loans, the details of which are yet unknown.

Hopefully someone will correct my understanding if it's wrong.