Realpolitik and Sovereignty (Falkland Islands)

Another clear analysis, this time by Rob Francis, entitled "On Double Standards".

If he believes a country should live under a government of their choice then should the people of N I have this choice ?

As I understand it, the majority of the people of Northern Ireland are living under the government of their choice.

Red herrings come to mind, ab.

Can't believe all that happened on the Chagos back then! Diabolical!

Tbh, I've often wondered if the Argentinian war was worth fighting. The islanders could have had the options to come here or remain under the Argentinians. It was just about pride, wasn't it?

When did the people of N I hold a referendum ?

I think you can look up the history as well as I can if you want the facts of the Irish story, ab. My understanding, without looking anything up, is that a line was drawn on the map of Ireland which meant that the majority north and east of that line wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom. I don't know the details.

What does Corbyn say about Northern Ireland and self-determination, if anything?

I do find myself agreeing with Jeremy quite often.

Since we sent people to fight -and die - for the Falklands, wouldn't be a good idea to roll over and give them to the Argies Argentina now.

Corbyn is inconsistent in his support of the principle of self-determination, as the articles explain with great clarity. That is why I started this thread: to discusss inconsistency of principle (since Corbyn is supposed to be a principled guy) on matters of foreign policy.

.thatbags, I know the history of Ireland , was fortunate to learn from an Irish historian

Good. Then you don't need to ask me about it.

What does Corbyn say about it?

Does he think NI on its own or the whole of Eire should have (or have had) a referendum about it? And if they didn't, why does he think they didn't? Also, why do you think there was no referendum?

I will extend you the same courtesy as you gave me thatbags - you can always look it up

Talk to me! Talk to me!

Hello Jingle

According to the BBC website, this was Corbyn's reply to Andrew Neill: Corbyn: "I do believe ultimately that Ireland should be reunited, but I also never believed there was going to be a military victory for either side in Northern Ireland.

"There had to be a peace process and there was a peace process and I am not ashamed of those of us that had the courage to step outside and say there has to be discussions with people... in order to being about a ceasefire which did indeed happen and the second ceasefire finally brought about the Belfast Agreement. Surely that is a good thing and actually a great achievement for Mo Mowlam and that Labour government."

Thank you, badenkate. What a sensible post.

And a polite post, no telling posters to look it up

And I agree with Corbyn entirely from that quotation. It had to be a fudge in Ireland, given the complexity of the history. But apparently the Falklands were not inhabited until Brits went to live there, plus Argentina has sovereignty over islands that, geographically, should belong to Chile if the Argies were being consistent. But they aren't. And neither is Corbyn with regard to the Falklands.

Oh FFS, ab. Grow up! I did not tell you to look anything up. I suggested it because I don't know all the facts and you were asking me questions I couldn't answer.

This isn't about you or me. It's about apparent inconsistencies in the outlook and principles of an important politican. Let's stick to that.

The reality is, that it is unlikely that Eire cannot afford reunification. According to an article in the New Statesman, 66% of people polled in the republic were in favour of reunification until the question was asked, " would you be in favour if increased taxation to be able to pay for it?" The percentage dropped to 31%! The Irish government is struggling to pay for its own people. As for the Falklands, no matter the rhetoric, i have no doubt that there will come a day when we will sell them down the river, because the current arrangements for defending the islands is barely sustainable. When it happens, with or without the odious Corbyn's assistance, i will lie down and die of shame.

So - I think you can look it up as well as I can - was a suggestion , oh well

ab: "I know the history of Ireland".

Redherringtastic, like I said. If you don't think Corbyn's stance on self-determination is inconsistent, please tell us why (if you wish to, of course). It seems to me that Douglas Dowell and Rob Francis have a good argument. If they haven't, then others can argue their case in support of Corbyn's consistency on the subject.

It is a perfectly good subject to discuss. The Northern Ireland issue has been shown to be a different kind of case (see badenkate's post) from that of Chagos and the Falklands.