How will you vote in the EU referendum?

Thanks dj for your link to Lord Neuberger's Law Lecture. Gives a useful historical background to the debate. You may be right Teacher11 that things will mostly stay the same whichever route we choose, but without a crystal ball we just don't know. What concerns me I suppose is the level of vitriol that is being expressed nationally, on both sides of the debate, which may do more damage long term than the outcome. As has been said before on this thread I think, this referendum is a just a sideshow, and what the government should be doing is having an honest debate about is the NHS crisis & adult social care time bomb.

Stuart rose is of the opinion that wages will rise should we leave, is that an argument for or against? Stuart rose, like others was, if I remember rightly an out man once, strange choice to be leading the in campaign.

Do those of you who think that we would be better out of the Union really believe that all these businesses which are saying we would be better remaining are just scaremongering with their predictions? Bit late when they all jump ship for Boris to be telling us he made an error of judgement and they were not scaremongering at all. The French have already started to talk about removing the border posts at Calais and no longer hindering migrants in their bid to cross the Channel. They are also intimating that the sort of deal we could expect would be nothing like the one we have now or similar to that which Switzerland or Norway enjoy because we would be a nation which had left the Union - not one which had never joined. Why would they not be annoyed that all the other countries would have to take their eye off the ball about what is happening in the rest of the world to sort out the mess the UK will give them.
All the countries we did massive trade with prior to joining the EU have in the main found new markets and those businesses which find having factories or head offices in UK a handy place to be because of the EU market will immediately lose that advantage. Too many are saying they will need to look at their position and if the UK does not get a very favourable trade agreement with EU they will be better off moving to eastern Europe - many of their nationals are working in the companies already but had to migrate to UK to do it - they would then be able to stay home!

Little Britain will become a reality and we are likely to end up as a Billy no mates too.

Wages will rise is good!

Perhaps not so good for business owners!

Welshwife. I lived in an Eastern block country for 5 years. Starting a business as a foreigner is not for the faint hearted, many fall at the first hurdle because of the horrendous bureaucracy and corruption.
I had friend who said he was moving his business back to Egypt as it was easier.

So we should listen to Stuart Rose. He was such a success at Marks & Spencers, wasn't he?

Plenty of companies seem to be moving to Eastern Europe -since becoming part of EU maybe things have changed - but places like Spain and Belgium have production there for world business - our current Ford car was made in Belgium.

Just watched 'Greece With Simon Reeve', part one. Brilliant. Fascinating.

I haven't contributed much lately as the information reported from the two opposing campaigns is still largely conjecture and political spin.

The leave campaign officials have still not published any concrete plans for how they will operate the UK's new found sovereignty, border controls and trading arrangements. With regards to the latter, economists are divided on how the UK will experience a separation from the EU with regards to investment and trading. There is agreement for the need to increase trade with India, China and the USA as essential for economic growth. The potential downside is that UK businesses and workers would be exposed to new levels of competition from low-cost countries. As an aside, these are the same countries which represent the highest number of non-EU immigrants to the UK. Therefore, it would be politically insensitive to limit immigration from the very countries that the UK seeks to develop increased trading.

It is being suggested by some French government officials that they would consider relinquishing the present bi-lateral border treaty between France and the UK; a treaty made under international and not EU legislation but between two EU countries.

The leave campaign (and initially myself) have regarded this as scaremongering. But on reflection, why not ? Here is the opportunity to exercise sovereignty and complete border control. The UK haulage industry has suffered massive losses due to disruption at the channel tunnel. The UK government has spent millions on increased security in Calais. But, the mayors of Calais and Dunkirk would no doubt be overjoyed at the prospect of having their towns freed up from immigration control. The only consideration for the French government is how changing the status quo might impinge upon France.
Welshwife this is a tribute to your Billie no mates comment. Why should the French and indeed other EU countries give a warm welcome to the UK post-Brexit when they have been given the cold shoulder.

Well said in your post above POGS.

I too have noticed the tendency to use words like xenophobic, racist, DM reader or UKIPper when an opinion tends to veer in another direction as others write about their justified concerns. It's not nice and a cheap and disingenuous way to belittle those who hold differing views.

I do think on this issue, people will vote with their hearts and/or their gut reaction. I have tried to follow the political arguments for staying and leaving and I must admit, most are confusing. I am in the OUT camp. I do think the Union is fragile and pretty good for nothing given the chaos in Europe right now.

I too feel extremely sorry for the Greek people. They rely so much on tourism and I hope they enjoy a good summer. I have no fears about going to Greece and spending my money there but friends have said they are likely to steer clear until the refugee problems in that part of the world have calmed down. I shall try and watch that programme about Greece on catch-up TV. (I also feel dreadfully sorry for all those who work in the tourist industry in N Africa. We had a wonderful holiday in Egypt several years ago and those working in hotels etc couldn't have been kinder or more helpful. They worked so hard too. Their families depend on the income they earn in the holiday resorts.)

There are so many issues clouding the IN/OUT debate and immigration/terrorism/border control tends to be the one most people are talking about, certainly in my circles. When a country feels it might be under threat, one reaction is to close ranks. There are so many things to take into account. I am glad Cameron kept his promise to give the people a referendum. I think it's a brave move.

Who was it who said "May you live in interesting times"? Ours is certainly beset with many 'interesting' dilemmas.

The problem is this re Calais migrant /asylum issue and who said what.

The ' LA TOUQUE TREATY' signed between the French and UK governments in 2003 is being discussed as though the subject of La Touquet and threats to finish with the Agreement is something new. This is not true.

At the beginning of last year the Mayor of Calais Natacha Bouchart was 'threatening' to have the French government revoke the LA Touque Agreement.

Natacha Bouchart actually went before the Home Affairs Select Committee on the 28th of October 2014. giving evidence over the Calais problems! She blamed our generous benefits system, opportunity for illegal work and the government should make it clear the UK is not ELDORADO. She said:-

"Migrants say when they get to England they can easily find work here. They can find accommodation and have some kind of benefits every day". " You need to continue and assert that the UK is not 'ELDORADO' for migrants. You need to take into account the population of Calais. They are suffering day and night for these problems"

So I ask this question. We were IN the European Union when this was first mentioned so why all of a sudden the interest now? Whether we are IN or OUT the LA TOUQUE AGREEMENT will be an issue so beware of it being used to sway in one direction or the other. Nobody knows if , how or when the Agreement could be revoked. !!!!

Teacher 11

Glad you enjoyed it.

Another French dwarf trying to frighten us. Like a red rag to a bull ( well some of us)

I really don't think personal insults to anyone, even politicians is in order. It loses arguments rather than promotes them.

The agreement was made between two EU countries but at the risk of repeating myself it is not an EU treaty.

As I understand it, the treaty can be revoked by either party. In France, some government officials don't consider it was a fair deal anyway, because it is not reciprocal. i.e. asylum seekers are not wanting to leave the UK for France. A mute point but as valid as any other in this argument.

I have no idea whether the 'consequences' referred to by President Hollande does mean applying to revoke the treaty. But just because the leave voters don't like it, doesn't mean it can be attributed to scaremongering only or that it can't happen.

If we leave the EU will the immigrants at Calais still want to come to a small insignificant country going down the pan? They may all decide to stay in France!

Especially if there will be no state benefits forthcoming, and no right to bring relatives over.

Just for you Wilma
Danone
In the mid 1990s both the Irish and British Jacob’s companies were acquired by French-owned Groupe Danone who redesigned both the biscuit and the packaging.[1] The two biscuits held together by cocoa cream were replaced with a single biscuit, topped with cocoa cream. The real chocolate exterior was replaced with a thinner layer of chocolate-based coating.[4] The original milk and plain biscuits were discontinued, whilst the flavoured varieties were repackaged in cellophane flow pack.

United Biscuits
In September 2004 the Jacob’s brand was sold by Danone to British-based United Biscuits, who have restored some of the traditional elements of the Club biscuit, including the two-layer packaging, with an inner foil wrapper, and an outer paper wrapper. At present they have not returned to the double-biscuit structure of the bar itself. The Irish part of the company was sold to Fruitfield Foods, to form Jacob Fruitfield Food Group, which has led to legal battles over the use of the Jacob's brand name.

Sorry, posters,, it was nothing to do with the thread - apart from the fact that Wilma's favourite orange Jacob's Club biscuits were manufactured by a French company for a number of years and it looks as if the product made by them was inferior, not improving until acquired by a British company.

I note that Gordon Brown is advocating that we vote to stay in the EU. He appeared to be very reluctant to sign the Lisbon Treaty at the time having reneged on a pledge to hold a referendum on the new Treaty.

Jalima why do you know about this? I must have missed the time when Jacob's Club was owned by Danone and the wrapping changed for a while, but I do know you can't nibble the chocolate off the sides first anymore because the chocolate is thinner! Still taste lovely though, but I did stop when Janea told me to (she knows I'm trying to give up sugar)

If the UK votes to leave the EU, I would expect France to revoke the treaty.

Wilma DH used to buy them every week if he could!! then he complained that they 'weren't the same any more' and hasn't bought any for ages.

I googled it - and found out they have improved again - but I'm not going to tell him .

Lavande. Hollande threatened us with ' consequences' the gloves are off.

I did stop when Janea told me to

Keep it up Wilma

Something else I was wondering about was what happens to those who have retired in places like Spain, France etc, as many of my friends either have already or intend to?

MrsHerMarbles, as a French resident, the answer is we don't know. There could be changes to reciprocal arrangements regarding health care, income tax, maybe to State pensions from a certain date. We are not intending to sell up any earlier than originally planned unless circumstances force us to do so. Some in our social circle are however thinking seriously about selling up now, whilst others are considering applying for French nationality.