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It will bring down David Cameron

(173 Posts)
obieone Thu 25-Feb-16 07:36:56

If he carries on I think. The Out campaign are not allowed to access any Government material that does not back the case for staying in the EU.

David Cameron thinks he knows what democracy is, and that others dont.

It will be a slow burning issue in my opinion, much like Hillary Clinton and the email scandal. And could ultimately bring him down.

Do you agree?

scrapgran Fri 26-Feb-16 21:07:32

Disgusted with what he said to Corbyn about smarteneing up even though I'm not a Corbyn fan. Just shows what Cameron thinks is important!
Was undecided about the EU but am now veering towards getting out.
Nothingto do with migrants but I resent what we pay to them and the gravy train for the likes of the Kinnoch family etal. Also don't see why they should dictate our food and what ice cream we can hace etc.

daphnedill Fri 26-Feb-16 21:01:12

Oh dear, oh dear, obieone!!! Lololol

How about backing up some of your put downs with evidence?

daphnedill Fri 26-Feb-16 20:59:15

What's your problem with France, Jalima?

daphnedill Fri 26-Feb-16 20:58:27

Jalima, How about organisations such as Shelter or the Joseph Rowntree Trust? Are they not supposed to bring to the public's attention that homelessness and poverty are on the rise?

Cancer Research UK is a charity. Shouldn't they have published data which show that smoking causes cancer?

daphnedill Fri 26-Feb-16 20:55:01

What influence does it have, rosesarered? Please give some concrete examples of influence which goes against the UK's interests..

rosesarered Fri 26-Feb-16 20:41:09

The EU has a huge amount of practical influence!!

Jalima Fri 26-Feb-16 20:31:42

You can say whatever you like obieone (unless it is rude and personal).
Everyone else does grin

I thought it was only the French other countries that didn't follow EU directives. Sorry, mustn't specify a particular country, so I deleted it.

Ana Fri 26-Feb-16 20:26:07

Jalima, that's what I thought too.

Plus, The EU has little practical influence and we can refuse to follow EU directives

Yes, so we can - and get heavily fined for our audacity!

obieone Fri 26-Feb-16 20:22:28

I was going to mention that too Jalima, but thought that I had already said enough about her post.

Jalima Fri 26-Feb-16 20:15:37

Interesting post daphnedil and much to ponder.

However,
Another way that democracy is being undermined is that charities are no longer able to use their funds for lobbying.

I do not feel happy that any money given or raised by me for charity should be used for lobbying. That is not what most contributors and volunteer workers devote their money, time and efforts for.

grannyJillyT Fri 26-Feb-16 18:58:22

Yes Obieone, I agree, it's not a fair playing field, I will vote out and Proud! smile

obieone Fri 26-Feb-16 17:48:24

There are so many holes in your post daphnedill it is remarkable.

The EU is a democratic organisation -- everyone knows that it is not

Sovereignty -- everyone knows that the Queen has very little to do with Parliament

The EU has little practical influence -- yeah right hmm

Arguably it is more democratic than the UK -- no

Oh dear oh dear

durhamjen Fri 26-Feb-16 17:34:53

Very much appreciated, daphnedill.
Please do mre like that, when you've recovered.

daphnedill Fri 26-Feb-16 17:32:15

The whole argument about loss of sovereignty and democracy fails, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not even sure what people mean by loss of sovereignty. Canada, Australia and New Zealand are sovereign states, but their Head of Government is technically the Queen. The UK is a sovereign state, which can make its own laws. The EU has little practical influence and we can refuse to follow EU directives. Even if the UK weren't in the EU, we would have to comply with EU legislation if we wanted to trade with the EU, just as exporters have to comply with US regulations. Trading or dealing in any other way with different countries would be more complicated than one agreed set of rules.

The EU IS a democratic organisation. Arguably, it's more democratic than the UK, because MEPs are chosen by PR. In the UK, we've never held our MEPs to account, but that's or fault. I never understand why people vote for UKIP MEPs, because they know they don't take the job seriously. Their attendance is very low and they don't make much effort to improve issues from within or to represent their constituents' interests.

Democracy in the UK is becoming a sick joke. The FPTP system has always meant that many people aren't represented. I have never voted for the winning candidate in an election, so my voice has never effectively been heard. Not only that, the government is becoming the least transparent ever. Laws are changed without the consent of the electorate and the government uses 'statutory instruments' without having to go before Parliament for a debate and vote. If the courts decide the government has acted illegally, it's been known to change the law retrospectively - as it has done with some DWP decisions.

The Freedom of Information Act is being attacked. It is highly likely that people will have to pay for requests in future. In any case, an increasing number of requests are being refused. Public services which have been privatised, including some NHS services and academies/free schools, don't have to comply with the Act.

Another way that democracy is being undermined is that charities are no longer able to use their funds for lobbying. There are also currently plans to stop academics and scientists from publishing results if the government thinks they would damage their cause. This is particularly relevant with fracking. If researchers come up with clear evidence that fracking (or anything else) is damaging to the environment or humans, they are gagged from publishing and lobbying.

Sorry about the long post!! I feel very strongly that democracy in the UK is being undermined under our noses - and the EU has very little to do with it!

durhamjen Fri 26-Feb-16 16:56:51

"Indeed! It strikes me as very odd that the very same people who are most concerned about what they perceive as a loss of sovereignty in the EU are entirely relaxed about the much greater loss of sovereignty involved in us signing up to damaging trade agreements such as the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. Such agreements are designed to grant sweeping rights to corporations to sue democratically elected Governments for potential loss of profit if they dare to legislate on behalf of the public interest to protect public health or vital natural resources. It is inconsistent and hypocritical to argue that the UK should leave the EU because of a loss of democracy and sovereignty, while at the same time being among the biggest supporters of the UK signing more secretive and dodgy anti-democratic deals. I recognise that however much I oppose TTIP—and I do—we are not going to extricate ourselves from it by leaving the EU, not least because the UK Government are among the biggest and loudest cheerleaders for it and they would be putting it into bilateral agreements as soon as we left."

Said by Caroline Lucas in yesterday's debate on the EU.

JessM Fri 26-Feb-16 16:49:01

Owners of the Express, Mail and other anti-EU papers don't like EU because it is much harder to influence than UK government. Please read with a sceptical eye Laine21.
If you think the Express tells the truth at all times monitor their weather front page stories which are always exaggerated in the extreme. e.g. a couple of days of sunshine = scorcher/heatwave etc etc

durhamjen Fri 26-Feb-16 15:57:50

www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/kirsty-hughes/has-cameron-ensured-uk-will-always-be-weak-in-europe

This is an interesting point of view. Cameron has ensured that even if we vote to stay in, we will be weaker than we were, having even less influence in the EU.

durhamjen Fri 26-Feb-16 15:16:35

ttip2016.eu/qa.html

durhamjen Fri 26-Feb-16 15:11:50

www.greenparty.org.uk/europe/2015/12/10/ttip-is-a-disaster-for-the-left.-but-brexit-would-be-worse-molly-scott-cato-mep-for-the-new-statesman/

durhamjen Fri 26-Feb-16 15:04:17

Voting in does not mean we get TTIP, POGS. I have said that quite a few times, but you never read what I say, so why should I expect you to say any different.

MEPs have a large block of members who are against TTIP. Cameron's government wants us to go straight into TTIP so he can sell off the NHS, big pharma and agriculture to America.
If we leave the EU the paperwork is there for us to go straight into TTIP, with nobody to object. It's secretive. It will not be debated in parliament.

I have no dilemma. My MEPs keep me in touch about what is going on with TTIP all the time, as much as they can considering how secretive it is.

German MEPs are now being allowed into the library to read all the secret papers on TTIP. Whatever they read, they are not allowed to comment on it.
Very democratic, I don't think.

POGS Fri 26-Feb-16 14:52:01

No it was not Corbyn .

It was Swansea East Labour MP Carolyn Harris who shot her mouth off, shouting about Cameron's mother . Cameron was an ass for his response , he should have left it and she would have looked infantile, instead he is the one looking infantile and taking the flak.

It was a bad tempered PMQ's by both sides yesterday.

POGS Fri 26-Feb-16 14:42:10

Yayagrandma

TTIP has been covered widely on GN.

Whilst I understand the principle of TTIP I don't understand why there is such a fervor by those who hate TTIP so much to vote for the European Union.

I also have said that whether we are in the EU or out we could still end up with TTIP as a UK government could unilaterally secure it .

Betraying your principled stance on TTIP must be one hell of a dilemma for those who are voting IN.

durhamjen Fri 26-Feb-16 14:39:40

Yaya, there's a different thread on TTIP. Lots of us are aware of it.

www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1207423-TTIP-Agreement-dont-yawn-its-important

auntbett Fri 26-Feb-16 14:03:40

I'm with you on this one Durhamjen.

yayagrandma Fri 26-Feb-16 14:02:31

Another thing you ladies may not be aware of is the TTIP , a trade deal with other countries which this government is trying to push through , and which could have disastrous consequences for the future of the NHS

A top lawyer’s just announced that TTIP, the dangerous US-EU trade deal, poses a “real and serious risk” to the NHS. He’s said that if the deal goes ahead as it is, privatisation of our NHS could be irreversible.

For over a year the government’s been denying that TTIP would impact our NHS. They’ve said it was scaremongering.
I want the NHS for my grandchildren . I do not want them to have to worry about cost if they are ill as many people do in America.
My daughter became ill while we were on holiday in Florida . A man from the hospital was constantly harassing us to contact our insurers while we were all worried about my daughter who had a suspected blood clot.