Is selective education being reintroduced by the back door?

I doubt any grandparents on here would like to deal with twin grandchildren on either side of the divide, when they know that in a different day it could have been the other way around.
Very difficult with siblings without offering platitudes that the child can see straight through.

It was even worse with 2 sets of twins that I know where one passed and one failed in each set. That is what happens when you have to draw a line between children of equal ability.

My friend was put there before O'levels and I doubt she would have been allowed to stay for the 6th form, had she wanted to.

I am just trying to imagine the shouts of joy as 75% of the population say 'wow- no comprehensive for my child, they are so lucky to get the sec mod instead'!

I agree with Leticia that its a shame if siblings cant all go to the same school. It must be awful to be the only one to go to a different school vecause you 'failed' - probably affects you all your life. Apart from the logistics for parents having children at different schools.

As I recall the remove was for children who didn't do well enough at O level (or matrick in Billy Bunter's day?) to get into the 6th form. I presume they did resits?

But it will be far worse with selection, if you are not selected- there will still be bog all choice but with the top 25% missing. I prefer mine in a school where you know that some are aiming for the top.

Still no one has given me a reason why my children, of very different abilities need to be in different schools.

My friend in the remove did very well - she is an intelligent woman- but it didn't do much for her self confidence as a child.

Leticia if you live in a small town there is bog all choice of comprehensives for your DC too.
I wanted to go to the Secondary Modern, because we took the 11+ there and had a lovely lunch.

Ah yes, a friend was in the Remove at the boys' Grammar School - didn't do him any harm, he became head of an even bigger school (and he was never fat)

'The fat owl of the Remove'....... Billy Bunter ( non pc in those days.)

My friend's grammar school was dreadful- stuck her in a form called 'the remove' and didn't bother with them!

Not all grammar schools were any good. Mine wasn't. Having been a bright kid at junior school I got completely lost in the grammar system and I hated it. My younger sister went to a sec mod in the same town and did very well.

I went to Grammar School, but really wanted to go to the Sec.Mod which was brand new at the time and most of my friends were going there, so I didn't feel pleased at all.They also had a nicer uniform, sigh.We did GCE's at our school ( and A levels, there was a 6th form) and my friends at the Sec. mod. Did CSE's. the CSE's were not so well thought of by employers.

If people don't get their ideas of comprehensives from TV they certainly seem to think they are 'bog standard' and all similar.

My sec mod only did CSEs and so I had to move after 3 years to one that did GCEs and then to the grammar school.

No answer to my question- why can't my sons of very different abilities be educated in the same school? Why would they need to be separated?

GCSE,s I meant.

My secondary school didn't do o levels. I had to get mine at night school in 1994 onwards. (Just for my own edification!)

Yes, I understand Iam64 but I think that it wasn't just secondary modern schools that were like that - high schools could make their pupils feel very small indeed - one friend of mine (High school, top stream) was told her career ideas were ridiculous and she had best leave at 16. So she did, went to Technical College (as did I) and eventually became a professor working on one of the most important breakthroughs in modern science.
Our local secondary modern school was very good and the girls were encouraged to do their very best - achieving good results.

Schools are different everywhere - they should not be but they were and they are. A lot depends on whether teachers are inspirational or disillusioned.

And I certainly haven't got my ideas about comprehensive schools from the tv.

lol Wasn't your DC at Grange Hill with mine?

No Ana, not all sec mods did O level, in fact when I was in 4th and 5th year, my school was the only sec mod in the area where pupils were able to study and take 5 O levels. I was predicted good grades but we moved just over half way through the course. None of the sec mods in our new ('middle class') area allowed pupils to study O levels. Girls studied secretarial subjects in 5th year, boys did tech drawing/woodwork.

It's offensive to suggest that those of us who remember how hard it was to be labeled 'failures' at 11 take a 'hard cheese' approach and blame this on their lack of success in later life. (I'm misquoting Teacher 11 but that's the gist of her post as I read it). I was on holiday with a group of around 25 friends 10 years ago. Only 2 of us hadn't been to grammar school and then on to university at 18. Both of us had achieved well academically, going on to university in our 20's after which we had successful professional careers. The sense of injustice though hadn't left either of us. Yes, we laughed about it and no we aren't bitter, victim like individuals but we retain the belief that it's wrong to label 11 year olds as successes or failures.

Exactly my point, Jalima. And I certainly haven't got my ideas about comprehensive schools from the tv.

many of the 'passes' who wasted their place by leaving at 16 yrs.

It is very unfair to say that someone was wasting a space at a grammar school only to leave at 16 and that a secondary modern school pupil could have profited from that place.

This was probably in the 1960s - when only about 5% of girls went on to University. Lots left, went on to FE colleges, joined the Civil Service (you needed 5 'O' levels to enter, and for Local Government). There were lots of openings for jobs at 16 which offered considerable further training, but you needed those 'O' levels to get in.

If a high school was disparaging towards its brightest A stream pupils because they did not want to teach then the best thing to do was go on to FE College.

I think that people get their ideas about comprehensive schools from the ones that they see on TV. They don't seem to appreciate that in the vast areas of the country that don't have grammar schools all the grammar school ability children are in the comprehensive and quietly getting good results and into the best universities. My eldest did a science subject at a RG university and he wasn't one of the really high flyers in the school.
There are only a tiny number of grammar schools left, I think it is 163 or 4.

Perhaps someone pro grammar schools could give me a reason why my sons, with very different abilities, can't be in the same school? Bearing in mind that the school was able to meet the needs of them all.

I think you and I agree Leticia! My oldest grandson lives in Kent where they still have the 11 plus and has recently passed and got into a prestigious grammar school. While I am Pleased that he has got his first choice of school I think he would do equally well at the good local comprehensive where his siblings would be able to join him later. However Of course Im glad that he has done so well at his local state primary school and wouldnt want to spoil everyones happiness!

All comprehensives are not the same and there are some very good ones about, like our local one which gets excellent results. Not all are like failing inner city schools!

A few years ago some sixth form students from the local comp did an exchange with a well known public school in the area. All agreed that the standard of teaching was very similar but the public school children were quite unable to organise themselves to do homework in private homes as they were used to supervised 'prep'!

You are talking as if all comprehensives were the same Phoebes - whereas they are all very different and there are small ones too.
I much preferred having all 3 children at the same school and they all got what they needed - the academic one a RG university, the practical one an apprenticeship and the artistic one a university with an art course.
I can't see why my DS who left at 16yrs needed to be separated from his friends who stayed on, or a different sort of school to his wife who is very academic.

Fran 0251, I do so agree with you. I passed the 11+ 60 odd years ago and went to a grammar school. In the second year we had an intake of the top girls from the secondary modern, who were well up to a grammar school education, so it wasn't fixed in stone that if you failed the 11+ you were forever at the bottom of the heap and couldn't better yourself. My boyfriend want to the Sec Mod and got exactly the same number of GCEs as I did and in academic subjects, so it really didn't matter too much if you were in a grammar or a Sec Mod, if you wanted to succeed, you could. he went on to get a good job. In addition, there were the technical schools, which provided a middle way.

I spent all my working life teaching in comprehensive schools and the trouble with them is that, while they are great in theory, they just don't work as well as the old system, as they are far too big and the staff can't possibly know all the pupils, so the naughty ones can get away with murder (not literally!) In most comprehensives there is streaming, which shows up the differences between the children's ability even more than if they were in different schools. If the children aren't streamed, the clever ones tend to be neglected as the teacher has to give all their time to helping the ones who are struggling and the clever ones are often given extra work to do on their own while the others get all the attention. The old system of different schools was much better as it didn't hold back the brightest pupils and everyone was on a level playing-field. The children got much more individual attention as the schools were much smaller and everyone was known by name, so you could keep an eye on every individual pupil.

Is it though? Are standards as high these days? Some graduates are apparently virtually unemployable in the field in they wish to work because of poor literacy and numeracy skills.

I don't think anyone took more than 7 or 8 'O' Levels in my day - there wouldn't have been enough time to study for more.