How will you vote in the EU referendum? (Thread 2)

Whitewave.

Sorry but I will argue the point but here are some more views you might not have read as I don't think anything I say will convince you .

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-camerons-eu-deal-cant-be-legally-binding-eu-parliament-president-martin-schulz-says-a6876861.htmlhttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-

camerons-eu-deal-cant-be-legally-binding-eu-parliament-president-martin-schulz-says-a6876861.html

The correct answer is neither you nor I or any GN knows if the ' Deal ' will hold in it's present state. What do we do if we vote In and the EU MEP's say 'bugger off we are not having any of it'.

Still doing my EU course and am surprised to have come to the conclusion that the EU would have not existed without WW2 having taken place.
Why is that surprising?

Someone mentioned the Bosnian War in a post above.
Yugoslavia originated as a result of WW1, and after WW2 became a federation of six 'equal' republics and two provinces.
The resulting uneasy alliance broke apart as we know, but it did not just result in the Bosnian war; Slovenia and Croatia also suffered and there was much ethnic cleansing.
Trying to cobble together disparate states, countries, etc in anything other than a loose alliance and trade agreements does not mean that war is avoidable.

fullfact.org/europe/does-ttip-mean-privatisation-nhs/

Updated two days ago.

Just thought I ought to declare an interest. I have donated to Fullfact so they can factcheck the referendum claims.

fullfact.org/europe/renegotiating-ever-closer-union/

Daphnedil

You are missing my point re Germany.

It is interesting to see you mention Norway having a far stronger economy and democratic tradition than the UK. Very enlightening.

Norway has been trounced as an example of how well we could 'possibly' do outside the EU by those who want to stay IN the EU. When the OUT camp say 'we could be like Norway or Switzerland ' there are howls of derision from the Inners.. As for Norway having a more democratic tradition than the UK Norway chose to not sign up to becoming an EU Member State, we did. Why do you think Norway has made that decision Daphnedil? Personally I think we have a democratic tradition but it has been diminished by being in the EU.

Why do you think the Swiss Parliament voted 126 to 46 not to join the EU as a full Member State of the EU . In March 2016 the Swiss National Council voted to withdraw it's suspended application for EU Membership.

Sorry to hear that you are sick and tired.

So I hope my reply won't be too upsetting.

The U.K. has a legal guarantee by the European Council that we will be explicitly exempt from the stated goal of ever closer union (or in your terms a Ferderal State of Europe - we do understand what ever closer union means).

This will form one of the opt outs in the next Treaty round.

Just as we opted out of the monetary union we will have opted out from political union. The Maastricht Treaty covered the opt out on monetary union, and the next Treaty will include the political opt out.

Let's not say it's a red herring then, let's just say it's a lie to suggest that we can't avoid further integration.

Whitewave

Yes I 'was around' I am not a new member.

I am sick and tired of the Red Herring argument. Has Cameron got an agreement on the UK opting out of the ' Ever Closer Union ' diktat which is 'enshrined' in the EU .? 'Ever Closer Union' I am convinced is seen by many to be a term, a throw away comment, 'Ever Closer Union ' is the desire for a Federal State of Europe, nothing less.

It has also been said by many that whatever he has come back with it stands a good chance it will never be voted in by the MEP's and it will be too late to know once the referendum is over and done with. Had Cameron come back a Comprehensive, Guaranteed Deal things might be different. We simply do not know, there was no rush to help him out by signing a legitimate agreement, why, because they couldn't . The Deal he came back with is a 'verbal agreement ' only and tantamount to being worthless .

Durhamjen

You have repeatedly informed us you are quite happy for our sovereignty to be diminished by the EU MEP's. I don't understand why you are so vehement in your believe, others to, that MEP's from countries such as Latvia, Estonia , Romania, Hungry et al serve the Untied Kingdom better than our MP's. .You believe the TTIP Agreement , which is done in practical secrecy by the EU, is safer in EU MEP's hands than the filthy, rich Tory Party and the disgusting Cameron as you and others portray him. No it's not! If TTIP was unilaterally being spoken of between The UK and America who knows if it would go through? If has been the case the government has put forward to Parliament an agreement it could well be shot down by the opposition and Conservative rebels. We don't have a chance in the EU Parliament to have such a level of authority over the TTIP vote.

This is one of the points raised so often as to why Corbyn is now looking like a hypocrite , he has gone against the EU and TTIP being discussed in secrecy and one reason why he persisted in his comments over leaving the EU and voted at every opportunity against all thing EU connected.

This link is Corbyn telling how TTIP is being talked of in secrecy and how it will be 'IMPOSED' on EU Member States and the US. It's from the Communist Morning Star paper so I thought it might prove a point better than I do.

www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-6dea-The-threat-of-the-US-EU-trade-deal#.VxIWAe_TVcs

Still doing my EU course and am surprised to have come to the conclusion that the EU would have not existed without WW2 having taken place.

Did you come to that conclusion daph?

dj, You're lucky. My MEPs hardly ever turn up. I checked their attendance record online.

My MEPs are among those who are trying to stop TTIP, daphne.

pogs I am not sure if you were around when we looked at the EU in reasonable depth on GN some time ago.

In that it was clear that the UK as well as a number of other countries have a number legal opt outs.

One of them for the UK is that of closer union, Cameron has got agreement that this will now be enshrined in the next Treaty, but meanwhile it remains a legal opt out.

So that is a red herring out about by the reactionary press I am afraid.

MEPS hardly make any decisions affecting the UK. It might help if our UKIP MEPs actually attended meetings and represented the UK's interests. The UK can reject decisions made by the European Parliament. Personally, I prefer most of the decisions made by the European Parliament to our own.

The UK isn't in the Eurozone, so isn't in hock to Germany. Anything that happens in the Eurozone will affect the UK, whether or not we're in the EU, as it does in Norway. Fortunately for Norway, it has far stronger economy and democratic traditions than the UK.

Some prefer the protection of the democratically elected MEPs from the MPs who are trying to ruin this country.

Well said POGS.

Maybe those that 'yak on' about sovereignty do not believe as you and others apparently do in the guiding priciple of the European Union , the aim, the desire for 'Ever Closer Union'. In other words a Federal State of Europe run by Germany as it so often appears to be. I do not mention Germany in any racist, ill thought out way but for those countries especially who have the Euro as their currency they are in hock to the country with the most stability and which can provide the best stability on the markets for the Euro to survive and that is not Greece, Italy , Portugal et al. The latter 3 are in particular trouble and Italy is being heralded as the next country to cause a financial bomb in the Euro currency system.

Some prefer to have ALL decisions made by our democratically elected MP's and not by the MEP's in the EU Parliament.

Yes robbie the social side of the EU gives us much more protection than people realise, much of what the reactionary right talk about when they yak on about lack of sovereignty centres around those issues. That and environmental protection in place are the civilising parts of the EU.

Sorry whitewave, I meant daphnedill.

I wasn't baiting anyone whitewave. .I was merely pointing out that no Soviet troops came further West than Berlin in answer to ab's comment, which is accurate. No, of course we couldn't have won the war on our own, we needed both the Americans in the West and the Russians in the East, I have never denied that. While I'm sure it is deeply offensive to people on this thread, but I actually feel immensely proud of my families contribution to the defeat of fascism, and of German aggression in WW1.

No, I haven't forgotten Bosnia, which is why I wrote 'relative peace'. However, compare that with 1914, when a relatively minor incident in Bosnia (Sarajevo) was the catalyst for a major war.

The EU might have had peace for 70 years, but Europe certainly hasn't. Have you forgotten Bosnia ?

niggly, I apologise for sidetracking the debate and know I shouldn't have done, but I just couldn't leave something as inaccurate as your claim and rose to the bait.

To me, WW2 is a good example of countries with very different agendas actually working together, even though there was all sorts of intrigue going on behind the scenes. Britain could never have defeated Germany on its own.

War is sordid and evil and I am very glad that the EU has played its part in 70 years of relative European peace. Nobody ever thought that France and Germany could ever be 'friendly' and I think it's a huge shame that Britain has never really committed itself to European co-operation, which is one of my main reasons for wanting to stay in the EU.

I agree with you, robbienut. My children are 18 and 23. I made absolutely sure my son is registered to vote, because this will be the first time he's voted in any election. My daughter has just finished at university and is still not settled in permanent accommodation, so I made sure she's registered too. My daughter's been on a mission to make sure all her friends are registered too., because many of them weren't and didn't realise that the rules for registration had changed. It is THEIR future after all and they have a lot to lose.

Well said, robbienut.

Any pros and cons to leaving are just conjecture as no-one knows what will happen if we leave so it boils down to whether people want to take a risk or not. I think more should be done to encourage younger people to vote as this affects them more than older members of society. I know why the EU was originally formed and I don't think that anything that has happened in the intervening years has changed enough for us to consider leaving, especially with the rise in terrorism worldwide. The socialist side of remaining in for me is far more important than the emphasis on economics - that is just a small part of what the EU is about.

Oh FGS give WW2 a rest. My family lost more than its fair share of members in both those wars and Im not prepared to argue about the ins and outs of it with you or anyone else, so just leave it.
I see no insult from POGS dj, so don't try and stir up trouble where there isn't any.