How will you vote in the EU referendum? (Thread 2)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-department-of-health-tells-vote-leave-campaign-to-stop-using-official-nhs-logo-in-its-a6910031.html

How was the Leave campaign telling us it was either the EU or the NHS optimistic?

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/04/rush-for-irish-passports-brought-on-by-brexit-fears

This is quite funny. Not at all what the Brexits thought of, I imagine.

durhamjen I read that press article too. I flirted with the idea that my tenuous link to Ireland may qualify: Maternal Grandfather was Burmese and Irish heritage, as was my grandmother. Do you think I stand a chance? On the other hand, my father was a proud Yorkshireman, so maybe I will stick with my British passport.

I think what bothers me today about this is that nobody seems to be taking account of the views of 16 and 17 year olds, who will be most affected, for longer than most of us by this referendum.

Why isn't the media - be it printed, broadcast or other mean - taking a vox pop on their views.

Still, just like Cameron and his mates were not old enough to vote in 1975, they'll be able to hold another referendum - in or out - in another 40 years!!

I think there seems to be a lot of opinion, comment, pessimism and optimism on both sides, but where is the list of 'pros' and 'cons' from either camp?

On a practical level, why did it take Tim Farron to point out that there was an EU wide emergency fund to help the people of Cumbria and the North.

If the Government didn't know - what chance have we got of knowing if we are benefitting or not.

Simply trotting out cliches about 'sovereignty', or 'securing our own borders' just will not do - I'd give those 3/10 and see me after lessons!

On the borders front alone, we have on the one hand a bi-lateral agreement with France, which allows our police/border control to work in France, but in the same breath almost we are blaming the EU for hindering our border management.

We are in the EU, and we also have that agreement with France - so would that change, or would it remain exactly as is?

Still confused.

I think those that want the UK out will soon regret the decision when Putin starts flexing his muscles and picking off the weaker countries, which will obviously include the UK.

I shall vote to leave the EU. Why? Because too much money is wasted:- moving to Strasbourg once a month is totally unnecessary; also paying too much in expenses for MEPs, officials, translators etc and not checking their expenditure.

I have read for several years that the EU financial records have never been balanced by auditors - that doesn't make me trust it.

Who actually makes the laws there? I don't think it is the MEPs but is non-elected people. Why aren't we told this?

I like a democratic country and the EU is far from democratic.

Those of you who take holidays in Europe and are thinking of voting to leave may be interested in this article:

www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/comment/what-would-brexit-mean-for-travellers/

I am v concerned about Scotland. Was relieved when they voted to stick with us but what if England votes out of the EU and Scotland wants to stay in? Another reason for them to hold yet another referendum and England and Wales will end up a tinpot little state with no influence anywhere and hiding behind the skirts of the U S of A ( with its new president Donald Trump!)

I do not think anyone realises the difficulty exporters will have. If they think the rules will be easier they should think again. The USA make loads of rules to block imports and the extra tax they ask for so American products are cheaper. They have only their interest in mind not anyone else's.
We will take years to unravel any rules anyway but we have bad representation as we have MEPS like Nigel Farage who can vote on our behalf and persuade others on our behalf. However he hardly ever votes or is in that Parliament anyway but he takes the big salary. Frankly he has made our position in the EU more difficult rather than better. We need better MEPS and then perhaps we would get our voices heard more. However most of our laws are made in our Parliament anyway not by Europe.
Staying in for me is a must. We need our European cousins in so many ways.

I'm voting OUT !!!!!! All my reasons would take too long to put down in this thread.

I'm afraid the Director of the British Chamber of Commerce has been suspended for voicing HIS views as being the views of the BOC...and now says the views he expressed were personal.

I'm one of that group. My brother already has his Irish passport..but we still have strong family ties to Ireland.

I'm not voting at all, as I feel totally unqualified to make such an important decision about something I know so little about. Ok I can listen to both sides of the argument, but how to decipher the truth is well nigh impossible. I simply do not know what is good for Britain or Europe for the foreseeable future, I can see that probably both sides have a point, but which is the right one? Don't ask me. In a general election, a perceived mistake can be rectified, but in the case of the referendum there is no going back, what's done is done. I voted to join the common market as I truly believed it to be the right thing for Britain and Europe, now, not so sure! I would have voted to have the Euro for the same reasons! Wow, BIG mistake!! thank goodness Gordon Brown didn't ask me!!!! This time, I'm not risking making yet another mistake. As they say, 10% don't know, and one of those is me!

I cannot believe anyone would prefer to give up democracy, to be governed by 33,000 unelected civil servants, who together with the European Court of Human Rights, can enforce the legislation they pass. I voted in 1975 for a common market, to make trading with other European countries easier and more profitable for all concerned. I did not vote to give up the sovereignty of Britain to become part of a vast, corrupt federal state. We were lied to by politicians in '75 and we are being lied to now about a 'reformed' union if we stay in. Rant over!

OUT - I do not want to be in a club with Greece, France maybe Turkey. None of them follow the rules. The EU sees nothing wrong in having a parliament move location twice a year at vast expense. My and your money for the vanity of two cities. If HSBC, the biggest banking corporation in the world decided to stay in London regardless of us being in or out I have no fear of leaving.

We have 64m of population and one of the senior financial centres in London. We are needed as a client base by the rest of the world, let alone Europe.

OUT is best in the long run.

Btw, Sam65, I understand that Nigel Farage donates much of his MEP salary and/or expenses to UKIP, much to the annoyance of the European Parliament.

Just interrupting the flow here, because I want to go back to a post from NFkDumpling on the 4th. It refers to the pension implications of UK retirees living in another EU country in the event of an exit. You asked if it would not be fairer for retirees in the EU to have their pensions frozen, as applied to some other commonwealth countries.

The system of discriminating against UK citizens, who have made national insurance contributions to the UK for decades has been the subject of campaigners for years. Not only discriminatory, but completely random as to which countries it concerns. For example, state pensions rise in line with inflation in the US, EU, Israel, Samoa, Mauritius but not the neighbouring Seychelles. It affects many black and Asian workers who want to retire to their country of birth in Africa, the Caribbean or South Asia. It affects more than 100 countries.

It has been argued that retirees living in another country are no longer contributing to the UK economy so why should they benefit from pension increases? However, it is estimated that pensioners overseas are saving the British economy £3bn annually, as they no longer make demands upon the overburdened NHS, Social Care, Welfare budgets or housing.

If one was to be totally mean spirited, it could be argued that a choice is exercised to leave the UK in the knowledge that there will be pension implications by moving to some other countries in the world.

However, the decision to retire to a EU country is made in the knowledge that pensions are not frozen at the point of departure and takes into account that it is subject to fluctuating exchange rates. Nor can it be argued that retirees in the UK no longer contribute to the UK economy. Most of the High Street retailers have EU websites and many UK companies ship to the EU. The current ease of travel between the EU and UK means benefits to the travel, tourism and hotel industries as well actual spending when visiting family and friends in the UK.

So, in summary, it would be grossly unfair for the government to move the pension goal posts for UK citizens currently living in Europe.

As for Forage remember if we vote out there will be no UK MEP's so there is a possibility he will not earn a penny from the EU gravy train. Why pick on UKIP think Kinnock's, Mandelson they and their ilk have earnt a small fortune from 'the EU gravy train'.

It's the turkeys voting for Xmas syndrome. Like UKIP or loathe them but they do have a 'conviction' ,more it would appear than those we know have spouted against being members of the European Union for years yet now back it.

We have 650 members of the UK Parliament and a further 751 MEP's who run our country. The MEP's are not elected by us, other than the 73 UK MEP's . The European Union MEP's, earn more, receive higher allowances, generous pensions than our MP's . How is it democracy for a country/countries be ruled by a non elected Parliament of the peoples choosing. They fight like cats and dogs and the biggest 'grouping' usually wins the vote.

I have always hated the Ever Closer Union 'enshrinement' in Treaties and the way the EU Commission an Parliament operates in nothing more than a beaurocratic , money wasting , propaganda machine for a 'FEDERAL STATE OF EUROPE', that is my biggest concern. The European Union dream is on shaky ground at the moment and I have said I am unsure how I will vote but lately I am edging toward Brexit but next week I could change my mind.

People keep mentioning another referendum about Scottish independence. I thought the UK parliament had to be involved in the setting up of any referendums in the UK, so Scotland just wanting another one wouldn't just 'happen', would it? Wouldn't the UK parliament have to sanction it first?

indy100.independent.co.uk/article/the-posters-that-show-how-hypocritical-the-leave-campaign-is--ZkbrkZw2CCl

Anne2108 describes exactly what many of us are thinking. We have been lied to for decades by politicians from both parties. It's time we left.

Lavande

I don't understand your post re UK retirees. Are you saying that just because some companies hold off shore tax accounts the UK retirees do not contribute to the UK economy?

I note in your post Friday 4th March 18.53 when you are discussing selling/moving from France you state " we would not be looking to the British market anyway". Obviously the UK holds no temptation for you to live here and if you are eligible to vote in the referendum you will have your own remit for voting, as we all do. I cannot help but believe however the passionate side of the UK staying in the EU that you have often posted is possibly coming from a different angle to those who live and work in the UK.

Do you honestly feel that there could far ranging repercussions that would see you contemplate having to move your home or decide on passport issues as you have intimated in your posts?

Do Europe nationals living here have a vote like they do in local elections does anyone know

i never wanted to go into the "common market" in the first place. in that referendum - i think it was a couple of years afterwards - i voted to come out but obviously i was in the minority.

the intervening years haven't changed my opinion about being ruled from brussels and with so many stupid pieces of legislation that i will be voting to come OUT.

that decision is a final one and i hope that other people who have also said they will vote out will stick to their guns.