How will you vote in the EU referendum? (Thread 2)

Ah, well, that's another thread entirely...

Why- this is exactly what it is about. Voting for a massively important issue that will affect the whole country, all of us (yes, me included, even though I do not live in the UK at the moment- but we only have UK pensions), our children and grand-children. So voting 'guts without brains' is indeed a terrifying concept.

The British psyche needs kicking into the long grass over this,

I don't think it is a case of kicking it into the long grass, more a case of some people not having a clue as to what makes the British people 'tick', what 'gets their backs up' and what is the best thing to say to give them encouragement and get them on your side.

Call it bloodymindedness if you like!

And, of course MargaretX, there were a lot of British Forces stationed in Germany for very many years after WW2. Many of our friends were stationed there, some of the DC's friends were brought up there, and some of our friends have German wives who came back to live in the UK with them.

"Don't tell us what to do because we will do the opposite". Is that really an appropriate response?
I am not saying it is an ^appropriate response or even the right response but that it could be a likely response unless the person wielding the stick understands the British psyche.

The British can be very tolerant but do not like to be bullied or pushed around.

I cannot believe that so many people seem to be missing the point here and just taking umbridge at what they see as people telling us what to do! If you read what Obama said he pointed out he was saying what US would do as people such as Liam Fox and Boris were saying what they thought the U.S. would do . Surely it is better to know what the Americans are thinking rather than going along with the pipe dreams of the Brexiters and then say 'why didn't they warn us before we voted?'
The original idea of having a union was to prevent further European wars - this is what Churchill said in 1945,. Europe has been beset with wars for centuries - is that what Brexiters want - the break up of the EU with the much increased risk of war? Above all else I feel this is a huge reason to stay and fight to modernise/reorganise the EU - many other people and countries are realising this does need to be done and much better this time to be in there when big decisions are being made than once again being on the outside.
When we had the last referendum I was under the impression that it was a forever decision so I don't understand why we are having this one now any more than I can understand why we now have fixed term parliaments when it has not been so before - only a maximum of five years - but this does suit the present Govt.

Surely people need to take a measured view of the consequences for their children and grandchildren

Many, many people I know do not have children or grandchildren who have many links to Europe; they live in countries further afield such as Australia, New Zealand, America (north and south). I know far more people with links to those countries than links with Europe or homes in France or Spain.

But what I am trying to say is, as I said to DH, Obama's advisers should have had enough knowledge and sense to get him to phrase his comments in such a way as to persuade the British people to his point of view.

Threats like that are crass and annoy people; a more persuasive and eloquent speech would have got people thinking about the consequences instead of annoying them.

When we had the last referendum I was under the impression that it was a forever decision

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, Welshwife. Are you referring to the one in the 70s asking us whether we should join the Common Market? If so, a lot of water's gone under the bridge since then and the behemoth that is the EU bears no relation to what we believed we were signing up for then.

And the promise of a referendum was a key promise in the present government's manifesto - presumably a lot of people voted for them with that in mind.

That may well be the case Jalima but they are not our neighbours in the geographical sense they are friends and allies worldwide and there is no reason that we cannot continue to keep ties with those countries too.

This again is supposedly a final decision on the issue - if we decide to leave and then in a couple of years can see all is going pear shaped it will be no good standing at the door of Brussels asking to please be let in again as we would need the yes vote of 27 other countries and that would take years if ever to achieve.

We didn't, though, we abandoned our trade agreements with them in our all-consuming passion for the EU.

You do not have to try to persuade me Welshwife but I do try to see all points of view.

That is the case Ana but further integration was always in the background right from the beginning - it is different now but the UK has agreed with all the laws which have come into being and most of those do in fact benefit us. I know that many people do not like the free movement of the of people within the union but the truth of the matter is that many of them who come to UK to work are willing to do menial jobs which Brits do not want to do. There will be a crisis in the food industry if we don't have this transient migrant labour at harvest time - what will we do frogmarch all those who have lost their jobs because the companies have moved to mainland Europe and make them work in the fields?

WE are trying btw, both British OH and myself- NOT TO LET our own circumstances dictate how we would vote. Totally agree that those who have chosen to live abroad in Europe should realise they are a small minority and that what affects them (perhaps partly due to the green monster- a tad, perhaps)- is not important to the vast majority in the UK.

It is clear that for us, a vote to get out of Europe may well result in us having little choice but either tightening out belt severely, or move back to the UK. But I agree, in the grand scale of things- not a consideration for most of you- and we will not let our personal circumstances sway our vote- which will remain firmly pro EU anyhow.

(going back a few pages)

Jalima, I meant 1982, because that's when I started teaching and taking groups of pupils to Germany. In those days, of course, we went only to West Germany, although I had visited East Germany a couple of times as a private individual. I don't think anybody then thought that Germany would be re-united, so I'm not sure what you mean by Soviet efficiency in West Germany. From what I know, by the way, the Soviet Union isn't very efficient and efficiency isn't really in the Russian psyche.

I knew and still know many Germans and follow German media most days. I don't think anybody seriously thought Germany was militarily strong enough to become powerful, nor did it have the will. Reunification cost Germany billions and there was some conflict between Wessies and Ossies. Public servants in the East were paid less than those in the West, unemployment was initially high and many East Germans bemoaned the fact that they lost facilities such as free childcare. If anything, reunification has been a drag on the German economy.

Sorry! I know the discussion has moved on, but I wanted to clear that up.

daphnedil I am rather puzzled because I didn't mention West Germany at all - I stated something like German efficiency and Soviet ruthlessness combining to produce a country to be feared (ie East Germany) by other countries and its own population (fear of the Stasi).

I can't cut and paste on here, so can't be exact but i thought that what i said.

You may have a different view if you visited East Germany, I only know from people who lived in West Germany, DB who visited West Germany often and friends who lived in West Berlin.
Some of them knew families who had been split by the division.

Yes, I remember the fears about the economy etc on reunification, and about parity of pay etc.

Jalima, I was responding to this comment of yours:

'^I think there is still nervousness about Germany. As nellie said they are so efficient and ruthless in pursuit of their interests
I think there is less nervousness about Germany amongst young people, for whom WW2 is history.^
I wonder if that is since 1989 (although you mention 1982 daphnedil), as it was German efficiency and the extreme ruthlessness of the Soviets which combined to form a society which was to be feared, both by other countries and by some of the population of East Germany themselves.'

I was a bit confused by it, because the only time I had mentioned 1982 was when I wrote when I started teaching.

For the first seven years, Germany had been divided and my pupils had only experienced West Germany.

I think I can see what you meant now, so apologies if I misinterpreted what you wrote.

Teenagers today know only of divided Germany from their history lessons. It really is the past to them. A few years ago, I taught the films 'The Life of Others', which is about life under the Stasi and 'Goodbye Lenin!', which is about reunification. Before studying the films in depth, I had to give students history lessons on what had happened. A couple of them hadn't got a clue!

The point I was making is that I think young people are less inclined to see Germans as jack-booted militarists, but a vibrant, socially liberal economy. Those who have been to Germany and had contact with German families often find that the German way of life and thinking is not very dissimilar from their own.

PS. This has been mentioned before, but the Future Learn course 'Why the European Union? A Brief History of European Integration' has a whole section on Germany. www.futurelearn.com

Jalima I was not talking about the consequences for children and grandchildren living abroad, either in Europe or elsewhere. I was talking about the economic consequences for Britain. I have yet to hear a coherent argument from the leave campaign about the economy post Brexit. There seems to be no clarity whatsoever even about which model would be considered (Norway, Switzerland, something else?).
I don't want my children and grandchildren to live in a failing economy in a country that has turned its back on its nearest neighbours. They don't want it either.

The EU is not Europe. Turning one's back on the EU, if that's how you want to put it, is not the same as turning one's back on one's nearest neighbours.

The EU is only what might be regarded as a subset of Europe. We'll still be in plenty of other European subsets if we leave the EU, just as we are now: we are not part of the schengen subset, or the euro subset even now, but we're still part of Europe and always will be.

We are also part of the whole world. I favour internationalism rather than European bloc-ism. The European bloc is, to my mind, not much different from the Soviet bloc in its narrowness of view when it come to trade.

I favour internationalism too. A vote for Brexit feels more likea vote for isolationism to me.

It doesn't to me. It feels like an opening up, an expansion of interest, just as becoming a member of the EU in the first place did. I think the EU is the inward-looking entity, not Britain.

There is a brilliant article by Will Hutton on the use of language in the EU debate today.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/24/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-barack-obama-slur
I am also interested by the section of the population who object to being told what to do by Obama (not that he did), but are apparently happy to be told what to do by Rupert Murdoch.

Who else would you trade with (apart from the US)?

What kind of agreements would you seek with the EU? Norway and Switzerland have had to accept free movement of people in exchange for trade agreements.

Apart from financial services, one of the UK's biggest contributors to GDP is cars. The way the industry works, components might be manufactured in Germany or Spain and shipped to the UK for assembly (and vice versa). It doesn't make sense to ship the components from New Zealand, Canada or China (or wherever) because of the costs of shipping heavy items. Leaving the EU would mean tariffs and extra bureaucracy (not less).

I'm curious to know what alternatives are actually being suggested by BREXITers.

Where is the evidence for how "the expansion of interests" might work though Bags? Where are the plans? Did you hear Dominic Cummings at the Treasury Committee?
You can't just leave on a wing and a prayer.