How will you vote in the EU referendum? (Thread 2)

And now it seems that the director-general of the British Chambers of Commerce John Longworth has been suspended after he went on radio to campaign for Brexit - going against the stance of his organisation.

So much for freedom of speech...

Why should pay rise if we vote to leave?
Does anyone know of any company that pays higher wages than it needs to?
The government wants to keep wages down. It's not going to give pay rises all round if we leave the EU.
Osborne has already said that there will be more austerity.

" I certainly don't like the bullyboy tactics from the 'stay' brigade as to what will happen if we do exit "
What about the fact that the Brexit brigade are using the NHS logo illegally, and saying that it's either the EU or the NHS? Is that not bullyboy tactics?

fullfact.org/economy/3-marchs-bbc-question-time-factchecked/

Terribull, a factcheck for Thursday's Question Time, to see who got their facts right.

I like this quote by Julian Fellowes.
"History has for hundreds of years been moving towards government that is answerable to the people and suddenly we have done an about-turn and we've gone back to the Austro- Hungarian empire. I don't think that's the right direction"
Ref. To the Austro- Hungarian empire.
The many different peoples under the rule of the Hapsburg dynasty had little in common, causing bitter internal divisions.

I see that people have raised the question of no one asking the young people - it seems there have been various polls conducted about the stay or leave and the young people - under 25s overwhelmingly voted to remain where as the much older retired people wanted out! Older people do not see the advantages to the young of the Erasmus education schemes which allow the students to easily have a year at another university in the EU and also the job opportunities etc.
I see that someone asked about how things would change for British people living in EU - one of the main things apart from possibly freezing the pensions which have been paid for - is the reciprocal health arrangements. If that was removed then many pensioners would need to return back to UK as the price of full health insurance would be prohibitive - from enquiries I made would be something like £500 per couple per month. What about those of us who despite being retired and living in the EU still pay a large amount of UK tax ? I actually pay tax in UK ( have no choice in the matter as it is simply deducted at source) and also pay tax in France. This is due to the difference in the tax systems and allowances.
If we vote to leave then that will be that - I am sure there would be no going back as the EU would not allow it - however we if we remain and things deteriorate to such an extent that it is completely out of the question for the UK to remain what is to stop a second referendum being held? After all when we voted to join, and we did know that things would progress with more integration, I always felt that it was a final decision but now some people no longer like the club rules they want to renege on the deal and leave.

We are not merely voting on the EU as it is now, but what is to come. No thanks.

what it is to come.

I see that people have raised the question of no one asking the young people

Yes, I did, ages ago on a previous thread. I said I would make my final decision after talking to younger members of my family - it's their future that is at stake.

Did anyone see Mervyn King on the Andrew Marr show?
He didn't have much faith in the future of the Euro.

Yes I saw Mervyn King Petra, I think he made some very good points, one being that Germany, after the war, wanted a united Europe and that was borne out of the best of intentions and high ideals. Of course the political landscape was entirely different then. Who could foresee how wars in other places would affect Europe as a whole, but affect it they have, resulting in a resurgence of nationalism and protectionism. It's all too apparent that European countries do not work as one when faced with a crisis and there is definitely a deep seated resentment by some of the more disadvantaged European countries of the most successful nation calling all the shots.

Many of you say you are voting to stay in. You say that you are voting for your Grandchildrens future.
Have you thought about what will happen when Turkey joins the EU?, because they will, maybe not in our time but certainly in our childrens time.
In 2014 the foriegn office said within the next decade. Have you seen the countries that border Turkey? I believe their membership is being spoken about now Re. the migrant problem.

TerriBull - I think Germany wanted a united Europe just before the war too!!

I also wonder how much the EU politicians are/have been keen to enlarge the EU domain in order to stop Mr Putin enlarging his empire to USSR proportions - which he undoubtedly would like to do - and how effective the EU can actually be in stopping him. It seems that only the Syrian war is putting a brake on him at present.

It is a problem, Elegran and I accept that but I still think it shouldn't be used as a stick to beat us with if we dare to suggest leaving the Common Market.

Long but interesting article from Der Spiegel, in English. Found link to it on Twitter via Kenan Malik.

I have started to read the Der Spiegel on their English website too. I think it's good to get the German perspective as well as our own as they are very much at the heart of what is happening in Europe, I will read the link provided, I haven't read this latest article.

Very interesting Thatbags.

can someone tell me what to vote for, I am just confused, some are saying to vote to leave and some are for staying. What is the best, every thing I read in the newspapers says conflicting opinions. And when I get this straight in my head do I vote for me or for the country as a whole. What is best for Britain may not be good for me.
I am seriously thinking of not voting, anyone advise me.

Ethel you will now just get tons of conflicting advice!
read as much as you can on the subject, listen to both sides, and then either vote/ don't vote.Seriously though,I am voting out because I think in the end, that is what is best for the UK for years to come.Others will have the opposite view, although having taken a straw poll of Gransnet, it seems the majority are for leaving the EU.

I agree roses that asking to be advised how to vote on this thread is just asking for trouble. There's plenty of information out there, just look for it.

Oh, just vote Out Ethel!!!!! Easy!!!

It's a minefield, but I feel that as far as the rest of Europe is concerned, our little referendum is paling into insignificance next to the immigration problems. I don't really think they care, apart from whether it will accelerate the slow unravelling of the Union as is happening now.

Interesting post Ethel but I have to say the more I read and see the less facts seem to be coming from either side so I think you will need to try and think for yourself and work out how you see the world.

As for the bullying complained of by posters on here - I can't see it from either side but I do see misinformation, i.e., treating opinions as facts and making up "in" or "out" scenarios that can't possibly be proved. There are also scare tactics - I wouldn't call them bullying - coming from both sides.

We have a long time to go and I think there will be - like the last General Election, etc., - many "quiet" voters who are not shouting the odds about what they think is right and therefore must be right for all. They, I think, will keep their own counsel and not tell others what they should do.

Tentatively sticking my head above the parapet, I've just listened to the final part of start the week and a contributor said something that hit home.
Not the exact words but ,
If we can show to the rest of the world how we get along with other countries, those that are different from us, speak another language from us, then we are giving a good example.

NfkDumpling I completely agree with your comment, "our little referendum is paling into insignificance compared to the immigration crisis" I haven't fully made up my mind how to vote yet, and I am trying to read a breadth of opinions. Of late I have been reading the English version of Der Spiegel, the link article posted by thatbags really does illustrate the lack of cohesion within Europe on how to deal with the magnitude of this problem. I think Angela Merkel's blanket approach, lack of consultation with Germany's neighbours presenting them with a fait accompli does not demonstrate an egalitarian and unified approach and to me that is one of the failings of the EU generally. I would love to think that we could do our bit to change the EU from within but it's so fundamentally undemocratic and clearly under certain circumstances doesn't work as one entity. On the contrary I think of late we have seen a surge in nationalism not seen since the 1930s.

Luke Johnson wrote in the Sunday Times Business section yesterday, "the EU is not a free enterprise organisation, it was meant to promote trade, instead it has become a political mission bent on promoting ever closer union, essentially run by the unelected functionaries in the European Commission and an unaccountable European Court in Luxembourg.

Terribull

Good post.