Anti Semitism in Labour Party and Universities.

Terribull 22/3/16. 18.11

Thank you for acknowledging this is current news and you see no reason this should not be discussed.

Yes I am Whitewave whilst I have been away I can't respond so as I posted previously I will make up for lost time.

Penstemmon. 22/3/16. 10.31

You are correct this is how Nazism grew in the 20's 30's . When shops are targeted in the UK for selling goods from Israel what have we come to. Your comment in your last sentence has been repeated time and time again. There has been much admonishment from posters over the occupied territories , myself included, that is not Anti Semetic behaviour. This is not 'sick' one upmanship on my part but I expect to read such comments.

If that's what it takes to be able to start a thread about the situation then so be it.

I feel I have kept a very even tone regarding my Palestinian family and roots.

I have stated clearly that I am not a Holcaust denier, that I am not anti-semetic and that I accept there will be an Israeli state and I wholehearedly believe everyone should be allowed live safely and with dignity & respect.

However I cannot sit silently whilst Zionist propaganda is pushed and stated as fact and the history and culture of a whole nation is belittled and undermined. This has been going on unchallenged for so many years, in mainstream press as well as by pressure groups, and those not directly involved often believe it. The assertion that Palestine or people called Palestinians never really existed is painful, and in my opinion racist. The semantics of the name of the region I know as Palestine is pretty irrelevant in some ways. As a key strategic coastal area which has been conquered and ruled by all sorts of different people and renamed as a consequence, a bit like Great Britain, does not mean that there have not been idigenous people inhabiting the area for the duration: Palestinians. Most right minded people feel that the culture, land and rights of the Aborigines, Maori and First Americans etc. were railoaded and abused. The west is allowing the same thing to happen to Palestinians now. The fact that they have tried to fight for their rights is seen by many as aggression. I see it as defence.

I know that my paternal family lived in Palestine, alsongside Palestinian Jews and co-existed for very many years. It was only when the politics of Zionism started fighting for a national home for Jews that the problems really expoded.

I am not posting links.. you can all look for yourselves or find books by Palestinians, to get a more balanced view. There is another story to hear.

Well said Penstemmon, because of the horrors of WW2 and the founding of Israel it has become unthinkable to criticise Israel because to do so makes on anti X emetic which is so not true, I think Israel is allowed to do what it wants when it wants , the Palastinians are suffering and this is wrong, and saying it is wrong is not anti Semitic, it's the truth

POGS I was referring to the rather petty arguments which seemed to be about which politicical party was more /less racist than another when I said "sick" I was referring to scoring political points. I do not care about the politiacal banner..if its racist it is racist. I think we agree there!

I do not shy away from debates about racism and I do not find racism against one group more abhorrant than another..it is all equally wrong and dehumanising to both the abused and abuser.

Tricia 22/3/16

Your link to left foot forward was providing historical evidence for the most part. I am interested in what is happening in the 21st century. As the article said:-

"Much has changed since then of course the 'Colonel Blimp' element in Conservative associations is dead and buried and David Cameron has made genuine efforts to distance the Nasty Party (not my words ) from UKIP style fruitcake racism".

It also mentions the singing of the song 'Killing of the Kike'. , previously mentioned as 'Nights of Port and Nazi Songs'. sung by Oxford University Conservative students. As previously mentioned some resigned from the group in disgust, the Conservative Party and the University reprimanded students etc. see previous post.

Just to make the point had a thread been started I would not have said it was political point scoring , it was a bloody disgrace on their part of all who joined in.

Penstemmon I find you post commendable. Given your family history it must be difficult to maintain such a balanced viewpoint. You write about your concerns with understanding and compassion. It is a pity that other posters are unable to take such a balanced view, but perpetually deny that any human rights abuse is happening. It is this attitude that makes people despair and which has driven many people to more radical actions.

I still think the thread should have the title Anti Semitism will no one party singled out,ni may not have been done for political point scoring but it reads as such , racism is vile

Anniebach. 23/3/16. 12.56

You have repeatedly posted you're connections to Labour and if I am mistaken proud of your activism within the party. You repeatedly tell us you are a pacifist. As a ' pacifist ' how do you feel about Stop The War when it calls Hamas and Hezbollah our friends , I am thinking of the Hamas Covenant which basically calls for the 'death to all Jews'.

Your last sentence is another classic . You are showing disgust at the posters that showed Anti Semetic behaviour in the 30's , 'No Jews, no Irish no dogs' I don't think anybody would find those posters anything other than abhorrent in the 21st century , YET, there is a rise in Anti Semetic behaviour and it is simply being pushed aside by those who felt it abhorrent in the 30's. What is the difference between a poster in the 30's saying 'No Jews' and refusing to share a platform with a Jew in 2016. They are both Anti Semetic behaviour. Please tell me , what makes a person see Anti Semetic behaviour in the 30's poster but not in the 2016 refusal to sure a platform with somebody who is Jewish, I simply do not understand how there is a difference.

Most Labour supporters would surely be thinking/saying 'Good on my party for not brushing aside any problems but facing head on any allegations of Anti Semitism in my party'.

Daphnedil. 23/3/16. 23.47

Interesting, I did not know Corbyn does not support Jewish Faith schools. Does he support Muslim, C of E , Catholic etc. or does want all Faith Schools abolished?
I presume the latter?

I rather like a piece in the New Statesman.

'There is an urban legend about being a frog, and it goes like this.

' If you put a frog in a pan of cold water , the frog will sit there quiet calmly until it boils to death. Creeping cultural change is like that. It's hard to spot when you are living inside it. You can stay very still while the mood of society becomes harder and uglier, telling yourself that everything is going to be fine as all around you the water begins to bubble'..

I think he's ideally against ALL faith schools. However, you probably know that some Jewish schools have been deemed as 'requiring improvement' (ie failing) by Ofsted and one, which doesn't teach English, has been ordered to shut. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/charedi-talmud-torah-tashbar-stamford-hill-jewish-school-that-does-not-teach-english-ordered-to-a6813041.html

This is to do with the 'British values' agenda, which, ironically came about as a result of the 'Trojan Horse' muslim schools.

It would appear that Arkush and some other prominent people in the Jewish community have tried to get Corbyn's support, but he's refused and been labelled anti-Semitic for not supporting them. I think it's totally inappropriate to call him anti-Semitic for not supporting a politcal cause.

Corbyn would appear to be in favour of abolishing ALL faith schools www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jul/07/labour-leadership-candidates-education-interviews-burnham-cooper-corbyn-kendall-schools

Daphnedil

Thank you for replying.

I had no knowlegde of Corbyn's thought on education/schools at all. I don't think I have heard him speak on the matter to be honest and I have watched with interest his comments on Russia Today many times. I will read up on the matter now.

POGS I do see the world becoming harder and uglier and it frightens the hell out of me. My teenage years were in the 60s and 70s, which was a time when it did seem that the world was becoming more peaceful and tolerant. Indeed, Europe has been more peaceful than at any other time in its history. The rise in racism, intolerance, hatred and the real possibility that we might blow ourselves to smithereens is something I don't ignore.

I don't think it's a particularly Labour Party problem and I DO think the current criticism is the result of unseen forces. However, as this thread has progressed, I've seen that there probably is an issue and the party needs to stamp on it. FWIW I don't disagree with the Oxford Uni Labour Party inviting the Anti-Israel Apartheid Party to speak. They've had all sorts of people speaking over the years and I think it's important for free speech that they should be allowed a voice, especially in the context of a university. However, I've read the reports about anti-Semitic songs/pro-Nazi songs and I think it's absolutely correct that people should have been disciplined for those.

I've been following racist groups on the internet for years (long story, but NOT because I'm racist - quite the opposite) and what's going on beyond what the mainstream media report is frightening and vile. I'd never actually seen anybody associated with the Labour Party involved in it, which is why I was suprised. Having said that, the British working class is traditionally socially conservative (with a small 'c') and that includes racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. Think of working man club humour.

My questions at the beginning of this thread were to find out the facts.

Before I go to bed, just wanted to give you another link, POGS. It's to a pdf file, so I hope you can read it. Fascism and anti-Semiticism were alive and well in 1960s Britain, but I guess it was rarely reported in the mainstream press, we didn't have social media and we didn't have the same equality laws. I don't agree that the British are more anti-Semitic than they were in the 1960s (and certainly not before WW2).

afaarchive.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/62_group.pdf

daphnedill My teenage years were also in the 1960s and my twenties in the 1970s. I certainly didn't see the world becoming more peaceful and tolerant – the Cold War was still a terrifying possibility and I remember listening to some military bigwig from the Pentagon talking about "acceptable collateral damage" in Europe if the Americans used their most recently developed nuclear weapons. Brits would inevitably have been part of the collateral damage and the man was obviously very keen to try out the new toys. Acceptable to whom? The stupid Vietnam War was still continuing after all those years – and what for and what did it achieve?

There have been loads more wars since then. Blair's wars number about seven – possibly more, but I have lost count.

Obviously nothing to with anti Semitism.

Just a thought: most Palestinians are Semites.

And there was Vietnam...
'bout time we had a senior politician who was not (cynically) flying a flag for religion. If it was not for the Blairs we might have got rid of divisive "faith schools" a while back. Gove opened the door to a lot more when he invented "free schools"

interesting how on the many diverse forums in which I have an interest up will pop a post complaining of anti Semitism and defending the actions of Israel. The posts are cleverly manipulative and the poster is like a dog with a bone. They won't let go. I love a good debate but will not play along....

blueskies I don't know what forums you go on, but those that i read are completely opposite - criticising Israel, pleading for the Palestinians.

Well this one must be the exception that proves the rule!

POGS, you make many interesting points in your posts, it does seem that certain groups in and around the Labour Party ( Momentum, and others) are pushing an anti-Israeli and anti-semitic by association agenda.There seem to be a lot of unpleasant types within these groups all clinging to Labour's coat tails. If I was a Labour supporter I would not be happy with this at all. To simply deny that anything unpalatable could happen within a Political Party because you yourself vote that way, is hard to understand.If people really find anti-semitism horrible, then they should not mind matters being dragged into the light.Corbyn should investigate what is going on, otherwise it will look as if he doesn't care.

After this was brought up at this week's PMQ's, perhaps Corbyn will do something about it.

absent, Maybe you mixed in different circles. I certainly knew that the world was a dangerous place and I remember being scared of IRA bombs, but we wanted to make the place a better place. I'm not sure that people today have the same objectives.

Of course there have been wars since the end of WW2, but Europe has still been more peaceful since then. I remember being shocked by Russian action in Czechoslovakia and Hungary, but I wasn't paranoid about the Cold War. I travelled in Eastern Europe before the wall came down and it was fine, albeit a bit irritating with visas and the occasional search, but there's no way I would go to the Middle East or some other parts of the world now.