Anti Semitism in Labour Party and Universities.

Annododomini, you are right, you don't have to be Jewish, or Zionist to support Israel. It is what most sensible people consider right to protect western interests and democracy.

you don't have to be Jewish or Zionist to support Israel
Venus surely the opposite is also therefore true, that you are not necessarily anti-Semitic to deplore Israel's intransigence.
Anti-Semitism means anti-Jewish in every respect, in business, politics, politics, one's social life. I am none of these, but ......Israel's policy vis a vis Palestine is for me too redolent the God of the Old Testament. No good can come of it.

What about the intransigence of some people in the lands bordering Israel, that of simply not accepting Israel's right to exist? That has to happen before a peaceful, negotiated settlement can be worked out. It's not Israel that is preventing such.

And it's not anti-Palestine/Palestinians to say that.

To be honest, I'm not sure that there is any point continuing this conversation. We have all got our diametrically different points of view and perhaps it is best to agree to differ and leave it at that. The only thing I would point out is that imo historically both sides have an equal right to be on this land, bearing in mind that the state of Palestine didn't exist before 1988. Both Arabs and Jews for centuries lived in these lands collectively, which were governed by a variety of other countries including the Romans, Egyptians, Turks, to name but a few, and finally on request by Turkey after WW1, the British. Therefore the state of Israel was not created by annexing someone else's country and to argue differently simply doesn't hold water. Israel has a perfect right to exist peacefully as a state, as do the Palestinians, the trouble is if one side is hell bent on annihilating the other, then that simply is never going to happen. There's not much more to say really!

Good summary, niggly. I disagree about it not being worth putting down one's tuppenceworth though. People's views do sometimes change when they have heard, through listening to others, a different point of view. Mine have on various subjects, including this one.

Of course it isn't anti-Palestinian thatbags. My feeling at the moment is that political correctness should not get in the way of criticism of political actions by whoever. Just belonging to be nationality or religion doesn't make things right- "my country right or wrong"- but nor is it racist, anti-religion to feel unable to have or express an opinion. Child grooming in Bradford was a prime case albeit in a totally different context.

I haven't justified any of the examples you have given Venus I have in fact argued that lessons should be learned from history and what has happened in different countries. Please do not attribute to me things I haven't said. Nor have I denied Israel's right to exist. All I have questioned is their human rights record as regards Palestinians. Admitting to a problem is the start of solving it. Read Maya Angelou's poem www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/still-i-rise
And yes I am quite prepared to accept this has happened to Jews, but as my mother always says "Two wrongs don't make a right".

I apologise for starting this thread and disappearing but I mentioned a phone call earlier and I am dealing with a problem but I have returned home for clean clothing and a bit of a rest. However I have read through this thread from my OP and I feel it is only fair to respond to points raised both to me in person and in general.

From the start I made my view known that speaking against the State of Israel IS NOT Anti Semetic. I posted this . "Saying Israel is brutal against Palestine is not being Anti Semetic . Opposing the State of Israel 's continued occupation , crimes against Palestinian people , mentioning violations of International Law by Palestine against Israel is not being Anti Palestinian. They are facts. That is not being Anti Semetic"

There has been a call to put a stop to this 'Unpleasant Thread' by Whitewave and talk of trolls , at least that's what I surmise. I disagree . I also have have not seen any Anti Semetic behaviour on this thread although there has been disagreement and heated debate . Throughout the thread there has been a determination to avoid the connection between Labour and our Universities and a lack of understanding the terms of reference of the meaning to be Anti Semetic . Although it is amusing to read post after post that sums up the point it is not Anti Semetic to talk about , speak against all things Israel connected. There has been much discussion /debate over the rights and wrongs of the Israel/Palestine problems but whilst they are interesting to read they are not answering the points raised in the OP. It is personal to each poster to say what they have and I respect them for it.

BUT, the OP question is not being addressed if we all agree speaking against Israel is not Anti Semetic . Until Absent and Thatbags raised the correct points on Monday I wondered if there was little understanding of the difference and what constitutes Anti Semetic behaviour.

I will have to get quite a bit of posting done as I am off again later and not sure I can get a WIFI connection so I may look to be taking over but I am simply addressing posts I real need a response. Thank you.

Palestinian passports were issued to Palestinains for many many years..it was an internationally recognised country and certainly did exist before 1988.

It's that old propaganda trick..keep saying the untruth with conviction and eventually people will believe it.

I wish there was never an agreement to create a new Israeli state and would have preferred to have seen a multi national & constitutionalised country built on fair and negotiated terms for newly arriving Jews and the indigenous population of Palestinians who were Christians. Jews and Muslims.

I am also realistic enough to know it won't happen now.. too much pain, hurt and hate going on entrenched in both sides. The best we can hope for is for Israel to restore the land to at least the 1947 position, though I would include a link between the two areas. Palestinians would need to accept that Israel is not going away and Israel will have to accept that Palestinians have the right to their own country.

However in the current world situation with the rise of terrible violent political Islam it is easy for the world to link Palestine with that and side with Israel. This gives space for Israel to continue its aggression and Human Rights abuses more or less unchallenged by world powers.

(nb terrible HR infringements happen in other places too)

Eloethan 18/3/16 01.38

You mention , perfectly fairly , Albert Einstein , Sigmund Freud, Rabbi Michael Lerner who are all of the Jewish faith and critical of Israel. The question is because of the rise of Anti Semetic behaviour and the refusal by some to share a platform/debate with anybody of the Jewish faith would they be heard. That is Anti Semetic behaviour and has no place in the UK nor at our Universities.

You mention criticising Saudi Arabia and other Fundementalist Countries and state this is not 'racist' to do so. That is correct but it does not address Anti Semetic behaviour in our Universities or seemingly acknowledging , as some within the Labour Party are doing, there is a problem of Anti Semetic behaviour.

Apologies if I (and I know I have) among many others have repeated your comment that to oppose Israel's actions is not per se anti-Semitic! I was trying to reiterate that point in the face of equal determination to railroad the discussion into a pro or anti Israel v Palestine direction. off piste is putting it mildly.
Some posters clearly agree with the point, others took it as on opportunity to claim Left wing bias and Venus in particular to attempt to justify the situation.
It has become an unpleasant thread, but your OP was not to blame, I think.

Blue Skies 18/3/16 11.15

Speaking up 'without fear' is not being Anti Semetic. You state this is not a forum to to make excuses for breaches of International Law. You could have a valid point but it is a Forum to debate Anti Semetic behaviour on the rise in the UK and our Universities and Political Parties.

One could say it is speaking up 'without fear' in that context !

It would help if we could have a definition of what is contemporary anti-semitism. I have just read an article by the leader of the Jewish Labour Movement and he says this is crucial, but I must admit I don't fully understand what he means. Please can anyone help. I don't think I am anti-semetic but I may be old-fashioned. Anyone offers?

Blue Skies

You mention speaking out against Apartheid in South Africa. What place is there in the UK for the annual 'Israel Apartheid Week'?

Israel Apartheid Week is for the most part hosted by 'Solidarity Societies' and Academic Institutions. I would suggest for those who are unaware of IAW enter into Google Search 'Israel Apartheid Week Labour MP's' and obviously ' Israel Apartheid Week' in Wikipedia.

Castafiore. 18/3/16. 13.44

When the UK is submitted to fear of attack and reprisal in our shops by Anti Israeli Protesters then I would say that is not Anti Semetic behaviour but sails very close to the wind as does some aspects of Israel Apartheid week.

Google search Labour MP's anti Israeli goods for one link.

Whitewave.

You asked how does the Conservative Party deal with Anti Semitism in their party stating you have knowledge of difficulties in the past. You further posted that Oxford University Young Conservatives had some 'Nasty Goings On There'.

I have tried to find examples out of fairness but if I put into Google Search for example 'Conservative Party Anti Semitism' it throws up the Labour Party problems. Other than Wilma's link to the 'Tories nights of Port and Nazi Songs' I am struggling to find something .So I cannot agree nor disagree with what 'knowledge' you have on this matter.

As for the 'Tory Nights of Port and Nazi Songs' it has resulted in members resigning in disgust and students facing disciplinary action by both the University and Conservative Party. Both have launched investigations quite correctly.

I agree thatbags, continuing debate and questioning ideas and attitudes that are different to one's own is both informative and worthwhile, it's just that we seemed to be going round and round with this, with arguments getting a little frustrated!!!!! As I understand it, Palestinian passports weren't issued under their own auspecis until 1995; prior to that there were passports issued by other authorities i.e. the British, Egypt and Jordon. These were for Palestinians living under these authorities, and they were clearly defined as such, as the state of Palestine simply didn't exist.
Of course it would have been infinitely better to have created a two state arrangement from day one, but we didnt, and whilst hind sight is a wonderful thing, we are where we are, so surely the best way forward is for someone, the Americans I guess, to try yet again to broker what so nearly succeeded the 90's? But to do this there has to be an element of good will on all sides, which sadly seems further away than ever.
I do hope that your personal problem isn't too serious POGS , and that it is resolved satisfactorily.

No, I wasn't aware of Israel apartheid week. FGS, I give up!!!!!

Eloethan 18/3/16 20.36

You mention 2 conservative MP's David Davies Monmouth and Chris Joannides. Chris Joannides is apparently an Enfield councillor not an MP and whilst he was cleared by both the conservative party and the Police of racism he was deselected and suspended for 12 months from the party. I had never heard of him before you mentioned him.

I don't know the David Davies story as I can't find anything about it but interested to know.

Daphnedil. 19/3/16. 22.37

"Rather hoping POGS would reply ". Apologies but I have made my reason known, I am making up for lost time now.

You asked if POGS thinks Anti Semitism is endemic in the Labour Party or this is a few isolated incidents.

No I do not think it is endemic in the Labour Party and I clearly stated in my OP.

" I will most certainly be happy to say that I do not believe for one minute the majority of Labour MP's 'NOR VOTERS' are Anti Semetic, quite the reverse'.

I am not 'claiming' anything I am noting reports widely reported on t.v, the media and indeed by listening to Labour MP's themselves. You further post 20/3/16. 12.50 you can find no other evidence of Anti Semetic behaviour I will put forward points later.

I've just heard of it too.
Did you realise that there have been almost daily stabbings and explosive attacks in Israel, Arabs on Jews, for the last few months? That's as well as regular rocket attacks from Gaza into many parts of Israel. I keep uptodate with the news in a weekly paper.
Israel is a tiny country - is she just supposed to sit back and take it?
Pogs - as for antisemitism in the Labour Party and Universities, from what I understand it's mostly fuelled by supporters of "Palestine."
The nature of antisemitism is difficult to define - I've been subject to it myself a few times. I would say it's based on stereotyping a nation, leading to a combination of fear, hate and maybe jealousy. And the potential for it is present in most people. Me included, I have racial prejudices.
I think Islamophobia has similar roots.

Some time ago -but conservative www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/conservative-candidate-makes-vile-jewish-5588308

Daphnedil . 20/3/16. 23.36

You mention, in your words not mine , 'Dodgy Lord Levi'. I take it you are referring to his proclamation to resign from the Labour Party if Jeremy Corbyn does not make clear Anti Semitism has no p!ace in Labour. This is not coming from outside voices they are voices within the Labour Party.

He talked recently of being on the receiving end of Conservative Anti Semitism but did not , probably because he can't , provide evidence nor name names. Cheap shot but I guess batting contentious issues back onto your opponent is part of the political playing game or handy for those who refuse to accept what is put before them. We probably all do it or have done similar.

Alea 21/3/16. 00.22

Yes it has been said already being Anti Zionist is not Anti Semetic.

I have posted " Saying Israel is brutal against Palestine is not being Anti Semetic. Opposing the State of Israel's continued occupation , crimes against the Palestinian people, violation of International Law by Palestinians against Israel is not being Anti Palestinian. They are facts. That is not being Anti Semetic"

This is not an unpleasant thread at all! there was something that needed to be deleted and was, but other than that has been interesting.
to get back to the subject in hand, let's hope the Labour Party deal with any anti-semitic material put out in their name.