European Union in or out

"Clearly the EU structure has defects when assessed by the normal standards of Western democracy – but I would argue that the British parliament, with its unelected House of Lords and an unrepresentative House of Commons (in terms of the balance of political parties to votes cast), is even less democratic."

theconversation.com/how-democratic-is-the-european-union-59419

From this article.
Apparently the reason we have problems getting anyone to be our European commissioner is because so few of those qualified can speak/understand another EU language.

European not 'Europe'

The Turkey thing is the only thing that is making me waver in my feeling that we should stay in. I know that the UK has a double veto that they could use against this, and anyway they are saying it would be years before Turkey would be ready to be allowed in. But can we be really sure about that? Turkey has helped Europe tremendously with the refugee crisis. No one can deny they have done a good job with the camps. I think that may well put them in a good light with many Europe countries.

National security has to have precedence over finance.

Regarding laws, I think the rules the EU have brought in have been beneficial on the whole.

Excellent post Anya, and just helps to cement my opinion!

I'm veering very much in favour of exit having been so undecided for so long, and my reasons have nothing to do with putting the clock back to a bygone golden age that didn't exist; after all I voted enthusiastically for the Common Market all those years ago, and if it were just that that we were voting for I would enthusiastically vote yes again. But it's not just that! The C.M over the years has morphed into a colossus over which if we are honest this country has little or no control. Not only that, the money that is spent and wasted on a day to day basis is eye watering, as pointed out by Jeremy Paxman. I have listened and read carefully all the arguments for and against, and on here Day6 has has certainly put forward arguments far more articulately than I could, but which in fact I do agree. Politicians on all sides are either oppotunists, or liars. Life long held views are in a matter of weeks suddenly turned on their heads!! Can we really believe that?!! What can we believe from anyone?! You can't! So you are left with having to decide on what you can hopefully decipher for yourself and vote accordingly. The EU is not a pretty picture, one full of overpaid, indecisive, people full of their own self importance whose only interest is power and don't actually give a fig about you, me or the next person. Who knows, on our own we might, just might, one day get a government who actually cares about the people of this country and not constantly have their sights elsewhere. Not in my lifetime, but maybe one day, we can at least dream!!

There are two main sides to this debate. When I voted to stay in Europe many years ago, I was voting to sign up to a union which had begun as the 'Common Market' with all that implies.

But gradually this Union is booming more politically binding and it is quite clearly going to continue down that road. I'm not sure that that is a road I want to travel. And as I said I'm still making up my mind, so I'm looking at all the negatives to see if I can live with them and I'm waiting to be persuaded.

This is my major stumbling block- the loss of soveignity by handing over the law making process to a large extent.

There are three key institutions involved in proposing, debating, amending and finally passing European Union laws. They are

a) the European Commission – the executive body that prepares the proposals (we are represented by an unelected commissioner and have 1 vote against 27 others)

b) the European Parliament – the elected body debates the proposals, may put forward amendments, and reject or accept the proposal.

c) the European Council - made up of member goverment ministers, they may accept or reject the European Parliament's amendments and may put forward their own . Once the Council approves a proposal it becomes law.

Approval of a proposal by the Council is the last stage in the European Union legislative process, and member states are then obliged to pass their own domestic legislation to enact the European act within the timescale set in it.

These three organisations are known as the inter-institutional triangle, as they are the core players.

Each of these institutions will appoint committees to steer the draft proposal through the legislative process.

I think you may well be right Jess

Of course the UK will have a veto on whether or not Turkey joins the UK, as Cameron says.

But, I don't think I heard him actually say that he would exercise that veto.

Political double-speak.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the Exiters aspire to a low wage economy in which unrestrained capitalism rules. The EU has been a huge moderating influence in a capitalist system, looking after the rights of individuals and restraining some of the excesses of big corporates and of politicians who fear losing votes (would any individual government have sanctioned a big tax rise to clean up the drinking water, bathing water and rivers of Europe...?).
You only have to compare the rights of workers in the EU and in the USA to see the beneficial effects it has had for individuals. All that could be rapidly rescinded by a government led by Johnson or Gove.

Yes trisher it's amazing isn't it when you compare him to his peer group. I think it is a deliberate attempt to create a particular "brand" to build a core support for UKIP. Or else, unlike the younger William Hague, he knows he would look silly in jeans, a sweatshirt and a baseball cap

JessM I didn't know Farage was only 52!!!! I've just done some research and George Clooney and Kenneth Branagh are both 3 years older than him!!!!
He must have had a hard paper round.
Could it be anything to do with leaving EU? Can staying in keep us looking young?- There's one the politicians haven't come up with yet!

When any big company or organisation announces it is going to close down and X number of jobs will be lost there is consternation everywhere and everyone saying how dreadful for those people etc. Here we have a situation with a number of companies telling us that if there is Brexit they will need to cut jobs or will relocate to the continent as without the free trade block they will no longer be competitive. This fact seems to be ignored by the Brexit camp and they are in effect supporting the the increase in unemployment - much of it in skilled jobs. The people who lose their jobs will not be able to move to the continent with their company even if they wish to.
Apart from anything else is this really a price worth paying? Will you happy saying to the extra unemployed - sorry about that but I thought we should leave the EU because I didn't believe this would happen. Will you be happy needing to see British people on the dole and requiring benefits or will they also become scroungers? Although the need for many of the jobs which migrants do will also be gone - more people out of work - less money around therefore less need for coffee shops etc - their contribution to the economy will also be gone and the rest of the tax payers will be left picking up the tab for the poor people made unemployed. I think the Govt saying there will likely be a year long recession is being very cautious - I would amazed if it only lasted that long - we are only just really getting back on our feet after the banking fiasco and many people have yet to get back to where they were as many salaries were cut after that.

Day6 please do your research before going off on one - individual national parliaments do not have a veto on Directives but they do have a veto on who joins.
Not complicated.

Turkey will not be joining the EU -

I see the Tory party is already lining up for the post referendum. Cameron says he will serve a full second term. Wonder who will be kicked out?

Hilton known as Rasputin- will not be welcome for sure?

Why do people think that Dave is telling the truth on Turkey, but lying about everything else, mmmm let me think.

Cyprus will always veto Turkey joining the EU .

The Daily Mail is the most popular newspaper online and in print according to press gazette in the UK.

Nor the Guardian!!

No article in the Daily Mail is ever a 'must read'. :-(

I have been saying just this for a long time. Glad he doesn't mince his words.

Steve Hilton on EU: - "A stinking cesspit of corporate corruption gussied up in the garb of idealistic internationalism"

Steve Hilton - advisor to Cameron has joined the LEAVE campaign. his exasperation with the EU and the way directives from Brussels had crept into every corner of Whitehall, stopping the elected government from implementing its wishes has made him speak out.

There is a big difference between being frustrated with the EU and going over the top and declaring it is in Britain’s best interests to leave.

Only last month, Mr Hilton told the BBC he was not ‘going to get into the argument’ on the EU referendum. At the time, this must have come as a huge relief to the PM, following the loss of Mr Gove and his old sparring partner Boris Johnson to Leave.

Today, as he digests Mr Hilton’s devastating critique of a Brussels club which Mr Cameron is determined to keep the UK a part of, the mood inside No 10 will be very much darker.

More below by Steve Hilton, once Cameron's strategist and advisor, who has revealed he believes Cameron is wrong and we must leave the EU.

Here are his views on security.

Mr Hilton also reveals he was ‘amazed’ to hear Mr Cameron say that Brussels, rather than Nato, makes Britain safer from terrorists and rogue states.
‘The idea that a British Prime Minister can’t protect Britain properly without the EU is frankly astonishing and, if true, rather alarming,’ he writes. ‘But of course it’s not true.

Yes, in a complex world of global threats, we need security co-operation with other countries — like what happens in NATO. Forgive me if I’ve missed something, but I wasn’t aware that this referendum is about leaving NATO.
And our closest security partner is the U.S. We manage to stand shoulder to shoulder with them in fighting terrorism and other threats without being locked in a supra-national institutional embrace. We co-operate as two countries. That’s what we would do if we left the EU.

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3603793/Why-quit-EU-Cameron-s-guru-Friend-strategist-Steve-Hilton-breaks-ranks-Brexit-say-Britain-literally-ungovernable-unless-power-self-serving-elite.html#ixzz49RDgD4hM
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Those who say that we haven't got the power of veto to block a country from joining are ignoring or forgetting their own history.

The UK was vetoed by France. Germany was keen but DeGaul said "non"!. This power of veto has never been revoked. The female from Defence needs to read a bit more.

A VERY interesting article in the Mail....A must-read for anyone wanting some clarity about the power our Government is giving away to the EU.

Steve Hilton, former advisor to the PM has put a cat amongst the pigeons by going against Cameron and stating quite categorically that we must leave the EU.

"The EU - It’s become so complicated, so secretive, so impenetrable that it’s way beyond the ability of any British government to make it work to our advantage"

"In this debate on the EU referendum, it’s easy to throw around terms like ‘sovereignty’ and ‘democracy’; ‘freedom’ and ‘bureaucracy’. But in the end, we’re debating not some abstract concept, but a very specific question about how our country should be run.

And my view, based on a pragmatic, non-ideological assessment of how the EU operates, is that as long as we are members, our country cannot be ‘run’.

Membership of the EU makes Britain literally un-governable, in the sense that no administration elected by the people can govern the country.

A democracy is based on the notion that the people — or their directly-elected representatives — are able to decide issues for themselves. And yet membership of the EU brings with it constraints on everything from employment law to family policy, all determined through distant, centralised processes we hardly understand, let alone control."

"Hilton claims the key issue for him is that Britain cannot make its own laws and control its own destiny from inside the EU.

Mr Hilton says Brussels directives have crept into every corner of Whitehall and that less than a third of the Government’s workload is the result of trying to fulfil its own promises and policies.

The rest is generated either by the ‘anti-market, innovation-stifling’ EU or a civil service dancing to the tune of Brussels."

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3603793/Why-quit-EU-Cameron-s-guru-Friend-strategist-Steve-Hilton-breaks-ranks-Brexit-say-Britain-literally-ungovernable-unless-power-self-serving-elite.html#ixzz49R9yOsKs
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/22/vote-leave-turkey-warning-ignorance-european-realities

Apparently the Turks were quite surprised to hear Gove say they might be able to join the EU by 2020 . They've been trying since 1987 and it's taken that long to agree on one chapter. Just another 34 to go!

fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

fullfact.org/europe/british-influence-eu-council-ministers/

fullfact.org/europe/how-often-does-eu-overrule-british-ministers/

These for a start. Lots more where they came from.

I think your time would be well spent reading a bit of fullfact, Day6.

fullfact.org/europe/