European Union in or out

Thank you for that Hilda. It was good to put names to all that was going on.
My Father explained to me at the time what was going on ( The federal State of Europe) I thought it was a bit far fetched at the time, but there we have it in print.
I didn't want to join then and I want to leave now.

Never did think Scotland would be allowed to join the EU. There are too many EU leaders who would not want to create a precedent. Spain for a start - with Catalonia and the Basque region heading the queue to leave Spain and then be welcomed into EU...
Shocking behaviour by newspapers e.g today's Express "Migrants Cost UK 17 Billion a Year" . This despite the fact that there is clear evidence they are net contributors to our economy to the tune of £20 billion.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study
I fear this attempt by the press to stir up resentment towards immigrants will divide our nation.
There is also much lack of clarity in the media re the deal with Turkey about refugees. "visa free travel" does not mean any additional Turks will be able to work or settle in the EU. It means that when they want to come and visit EU countries in the Schengen area (not the UK) to visit their cousins etc, they will not have to pay for a visa. (They will have to pay £85 each for a visa if they want to come on holiday here). There are lots of law abiding Turks working in all kinds of other roles across the EU and none of them have ever been responsible for a terrorist attack as far as I know (this was asserted by a Turkish diplomat on radio this morning).

If the SNP had won the "once in a lifetime referendum" and separated Scotland from the rest of the UK they would certainly be OUT of the EU. They received legal advice to that effect in 2014 referendum but lied to the voters about it.

If anyone in Scotland wants to remain in the EU, then they should vote to remain and stop supporting any separatist party. The notion that you can leave UK and still remain in in EU is intellectually incoherent nonsense.

Most Scots are happy to be Scottish, British and European.

I read an interesting article this morning. I didn't know the full story of why we joined. I must say that if I had known, I probably would not have voted yes to the EU.
here's the article.

The SNP back the 'Remain' campaign and if the UK does stay in the EU it is likely to be on the backs of Scottish voters who seem to favour remaining by a substantially larger majority than the English.

But any excuse to slag off the democratically elected SNP I suppose

I agree with you both but how do you get the information to people who don't understand this is a once in a lifetime vote - a forever vote.

Varian,
I agree, well said. Farage likes it both ways. He has a huge chip on his shoulders and it is time he was brought into the real world.

More worrying this morning is the news on the growing crises in the NHS with shortages of Doctors, Nurses and Care staff. The figures of the number of eu recruited staff to help us out is staggering.

We shall be in a critical crises if such staff become unavailable through leaving the EU. I see Lincolnshire farmers are saying the same about short term migrants. They say local UK labour is impossible to obtain. Perhapts all those voting out will volunteer to help them and the NHS. After all it is such prejudicial views that are going to add to our problems as well as creating a economic short term crises.

Nigel Farage told an interviewer on BBC breakfast this morning that he would call for a rerun of the referendum if the Remain side won by a small margin.

The last thing we need is another threat of the sort we still get from the SNP - "if you don't agree with us we'll keep asking the same question again and again until you do" .

These people are not democrats and intelligent voters should make it clear that this, like the 2014 Scottish referendum is ONCE IN A LIFETIME.

I was shocked listening to "Today" this morning where a polling company was reporting that many people believe that if we vote out and don't like it we will get another vote and can go back in. One chap thought we got a vote on it every three or was it every five years! I know we are politics geeks or we wouldn't be on this thread but that sort of ignorance amazes me. Whatever way they are going to vote please can we find some way to tell people this is once and for all

Has anyone ever looked at their taxes and public spending breakdown lately?
I pay over a thousand pound in tax, but only £6.50 goes to the EU budget.
This referendum paperwork is going to cost them more than that.
I do not begrudge £6.50 going to the EU for everything we get out of it.

Alea you are right, both camps are invoking everything except plague and damnation.We may have to lie down in a darkened room.

well said Varian

I heard this morning that Wales is one of the few countries which receives more from the EU on a regular basis than it pays in. For the sake of the people I hope they vote to remain.

I have just received my copy of the EU referendum guide by the Electoral Commission.
One very obvious thing to notice is that the voteremain group give sources for their statements. Voteleave do not have a single source.
Their main point is about paying £350 million a week. It is repeated 4 times on an A5 size sheet of paper. It is not true, which is prbably why they do not give their sources.

fullfact.org/europe/ask-full-fact-our-eu-membership-fee-and-economy/

Thanks for that daphne. I think most would agree that neoliberalism as seen in the USA would be the equivalent of modern conservatism in this country. Perhaps Social Democracy is the modern opposite. Watching the antics within the Conservatives I wonder if parties will change forever after this.

varian - duly noted Although I expect we were all aware of the difference. However we have missed the moment to avoid neoliberalism as it is alive and well in the Conservative party and being inflicted on us as this government attempts to "force" changes on the population.

What's really scary is that some people think he's just a buffoon and others think he would make a good PM.
Let's hope that neither group lets him run the Tory party.

That makes scary reading dj the man is two pence short of a shilling. There is more similarity to Trump than I realised.

www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2016/05/16/the-many-times-boris-johnson-compared-his-enemies-to-murdero

Here's a scary Brexiter.

Just as an aside - DuncanSmith came as near as damn it yesterday in saying that employment laws that protect the worker would be loosened should Brexit succeed.

Laissez faire has never worked, it never will, but there is a certain element in the Tory party who blindly follow this ideology, ignoring for example the disastrous result when Thatcher tried to apply it. It's emphasis on supply side economics means that when the capitalist system falls into recession - as it unfailingly does - the fiscal stimulus needed to promote continued growth is lacking and fiscal austerity is the only answer they have.

Please note that the LIberal Democrats support Liberalism and Social democracy as opposed to Neoliberalism.

Neoliberalism should not be confused with Liberalism any more than Socialism is to be confused with National Socialism. These are both extremist positions which we should guard against.

This is Wiki's definition of neoliberalism, as it currently exists:

'Neoliberalism is a term which has been used since the 1950s, but became more prevalent in its current meaning in the 1970s and 80s by scholars in a wide variety of social sciences and critics primarily in reference to the resurgence of 19th century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism. Its advocates support extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy.[

Neoliberalism is famously associated with the economic policies introduced by Margaret Thatcher in the United Kingdom and Ronald Reagan in the United States. The implementation of neoliberal policies and the acceptance of neoliberal economic theories in the 1970s are seen by some academics as the root of financialization, with the financial crisis of 2007–08 one of the ultimate results.'

Most of the BREXIT politicians strongly support the above approach and have written books or articles about it. I think it would be naive to think that some of them won't become more more important (promoted) if UK leaves the EU. There won't even be an organisation like the EU to put the brake on, although I think people sometimes overestimate how much power the EU actually has.

I much prefer social democracy, which is much stronger in other EU states, particularly in Northern Europe. Social democracy is not against capitalism, but it does aim to guarantee an adequate social security system and aims to be fairer (and in most cases is).

I agree with you about the BREXIT politicians being of the US neoliberal camp. A BREXITER was saying this morning we should vote according to the "friends" of the remain camp or the "friends" of the "leave" camp. His point was the "friends" of remain were in big business orientated and the "friends" of "leave" were small business orientated (leaving out the fact that the "friends" of remain include those who are worker orientated).

I looked at the "friends" of leave, now added to by Donald Trump and I really don't think the man who was saying this had thought about it very carefully.

The "US neoliberal" is a good descriptor daphne (not my idea of liberal though). It is not how we have traditionally divided over here but perhaps we are moving in that direction. What would be a modern description of those who oppose this point of view do you think?

I agree with you about the scaremongering hype from both sides. It's impossible to put an actual figure on any amount of money saved/lost, because we just don't know what's going to happen in the future. However, what really sways it for me is that BREXITERs don't even seem to have a plan - not one they're prepared to admit in public, anyway.

Admittedly things don't always go to plan, but if there isn't a plan in the first place, nobody knows which way to head. There have been vague mutterings about having trade agreements with non-EU countries, assurances that trade with the EU will carry on as usual, promises that the money saved will go into the NHS, but there are absolutely no guarantees that any of this will happen and it just seems like 'back of a fag packet' stuff. We cannot ever go back 50 years, so we have to think to the future and I'm not convinced that any of the BREXIT politicians actually have.

Looking at the history of the BREXIT politicians, most of them are neoliberal in the American sense (ie. small state, minimal regulation and few social safety nets), veer towards being more 'friendly' with the US and are on record as wanting to increase privatisation in the NHS. This isn't a way I want to go. The EU isn't perfect, but I prefer the European social democratic model.

A plague on both your houses, but you've still got a vote.
What are you going to do, vote for neither, and leave it up to them?

I think both sides have done themselves few favours by scaremongering hype. It may make for eye catching headlines, but insults our intelligence and is likely ultimately to backfire.
"A plague on both your houses"