European Union in or out

Gg, I have never claimed the EU is perfect, despite having been a committed Europhile all my adult life. In my opinion, the EU has brought the UK many advantages and I think it's harder to stand up for the 'status quo' rather than to fire people up about change. Of course, nothing is perfect and the world generally is unstable, but change for change's sake isn't the answer. History never stands still and I believe the UK is in a much stronger position to influence the future as a member of the EU rather than as a little island which once had an Empire and as a puppet of the US. I have read many posts and articles about the EU, both for and against, and I still haven't seen one coherent argument which sways me to want to leave. When I look at the credentials of the people who want the UK to leave, I am more convinced than ever that I do not want a country led by these people.

I think you are right on the Brexit one - money will have to be spent to cover the things the EU is no longer doing - and the Bremain is fluffy. What is "safer"?

I think the idea of trying to say either way is perfect was always a looser.

I can accept that it's unconvincing for the Brexit camp to say that money saved from opting out of the EU would be spent instead on x, y, and z. However, I think it's equally unconvincing of Bremain to say that staying in is "safer" for the UK.

Day6 I am not out or in at this point I just dislike bad maths.

Day6,

There is EVERY doubt. Even Arron Banks, who has been bankrolling Farage, thinks that the average family would be £4000 a year worse off.

Neither side can say with any certainty how much the UK would 'save' because we just don't know how leaving would affect the City, exports, businesses which have invested in the UK, etc etc.

It is totally misleading for BREXITers to say how the money COULD be spent, because they don't have a clue. They've already claimed it could be spent on the NHS and now it's on farming and fishing. What's next? They tend to support TTIP and nobody know how much becoming a puppet of the US would cost either. It would almost certainly drive down wages in the UK and we'd be heading towards becoming a sweatshop economy, apart from the very rich. The NHS is, by the way, unlikely to survive in their hands - you only have to look at previous publications by Carswell and Fox to see what they'd like.

No I certainly don't want to suppress debate. But I will argue vigorously, which I find stimulating and fun.

I am more than aware of the left's argument relating to the EU, that is why Corbyn, Benn T. and others of the left are traditionally against the EU. But I would argue that we are where we are and given the alternative and the likely outcome of a no vote, the British worker is safest inside the EU.
Your group of intelligent left wingers were not being particularly rational in arguing that British workers would have more rights if we left. The is absolutely no evidence for that at all, in fact the complete opposite is almost certainly the case.
There will be no mass immigration that is hysteria.
By the way I don't scorn wealthy folk, as long as they are contributing fairly to the well being ot the country that feeds them.

"Day6, I seriously think you should do some research about government 'savings'. A government is NOT like a household. It doesn't stick savings in an account and earn interest. "

Whooosh! There it goes, right overhead.....

For goodness sake...It was an illustration. I was being facetious.

Did you really think I thought some office worker from Govt HQ went down to the local Building Society to put a cheque in every month.... ?

There is no doubt though that we'd save billions every year if we didn't have to pay our membership dues to the EU.

Gotta smile.

I seem to be one of few posting in the OUT cause, and any political thread seems the preserve of left-wing posters who come out in force to suppress/question/put down any arguments, ideas, thoughts those who want OUT may have. They are few in number but tend to dominate. I can understand why the majority of Gransnetters steer clear.

Had a very interesting chat with some girl friends last night...all educated, well read women, interested in politics and many staunch left-wingers.

It was mooted that the left are so in favour of open borders and free movement because they are traditionally the anti-establishment party. If the UK becomes the destination of many Turks and Eastern Europeans...and millions will have the right to travel in the years to come if EU membership is granted, that would play right into Labour's hands, upsetting the balance of power. They'd quite like anarchy in the UK....a destabilising of the status quo.

However, some argued, it would be UK nationals at grass roots level like you and I who'd have to bear the strain on the system...not the wealthier section of society Labour tend to scorn.They have the means to avoid/escape the changing face of Britain..

The NHS isn't likely to expand, class sizes are already large, advocates are needed everywhere to translate, advocate and aid newcomers not speaking English, new houses will have to be built to accommodate new arrivals to the UK, our overcrowded roads will get worse... doctors surgeries will feel the strain, as will all our social services and police force. Fitting a pint into a quart pot is the adage that comes to mind.

We tried to think of the advantages of destabilisation of population, of mass immigration to the UK on a scale not seen before, and there was not one convincing argument for it, sad to say.

The argument that these people are poor and disadvantaged was the strongest but we weren't sure how being in the EU improved OUR lives. It's been argued that workers throughout the UK will have their rights and employment opportunities strengthened by leaving the UK.

Some argued that sadly, the world has never been a fair place, and is it right and proper that membership of the EU means the west should absorb the problems of Turkey and Eastern Europeans?

I feel we do have a responsibility to ensure the world is a fairer place. Those of us wanting OUT of the EU argued we'd be better able to help poorer Eastern Europeans if we weren't pouring billions into a system which doesn't seem to benefit us much.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

*Gerard typo

The UK farming industry receives between £2.5-£3 billion pounds a year (depending on the exchange rate) from the EU. Cornwall has received over £1 billion over the last 15 years from the EU structural fund. Other areas have also received huge sums. There is NO guarantee that a UK government would spend the money on supporting farming and poorer areas, especially as BREXITers have already said they'd give the money to the NHS! ;-(

Ask the people of Port Talbot or Redcar what they think of the UK blocking tariffs for imports from China, if you want to find out the results of cheap imports.

Gerald Lyons is Boris Johnson's advisor - would he spend the money on tree-lined bridges?

All BREXITers are doing is throwing huge amounts of money in the air, but they still don't have a coherent plan for any alternative. I was reading yesterday that Michael Gove thinks Albania would be an ideal trading partner. Errrmmm!

No you are correct we don't need complex deals to trade, that is one of the reasons, albeit a small one, to get rid of TTIP.

bags all countries throughout the world stick tariffs on their trade. They do it for a wide variety of reasons. But it matters not whether you are in or out tariffs will still exist.

It isn't Gerald Lyons customs union. The customs union was one of the original Treaties of the then Common Market. All businesses benefit from this.

The EU is what Gerard Lyons calls a customs union. He argues that there is a tariff wall around the EU that protects agriculture "largely for the benefit of France" and parts of manufacturing for the benefit of Germany. In such protected areas "the little people"—that's you and me on thr buying side and producers in places like the Caribbean and Africa on the producing side—pay higher prices or can't sell their stuff at lower prices than they would in the world market.

TTIP is trade deal between the EU and the US. Lyons' argument is that we don't need complex trade deals to trade.

Donald Tusk has called on Brussels to halt attempts to replace individual countries with a European superstate.
In Rome, yesterday he said " it is time to redifine our dreams of the eu. This means that today we must admit this dream of one European state with one common interest and maybe in the future one common nation was an illusion.
And there was me thinking that they always denied that that was the plan.

I agree with ww and am puzzled. Trading within the EU is nothing like TTIP.

Day6, I seriously think you should do some research about government 'savings'. A government is NOT like a household. It doesn't stick savings in an account and earn interest. That man on QT wasn't a macro-economist and didn't seem to understand that it just doesn't work like that.

Trump backs Brexit. That's the end of the Brexit campaign then

I am not quite sure of your argument tb We have no trade deals with the EU as we are the EU?

TTIP is on a whole different level to the usual trade deal.

Yes we can still trade without deals in or out of the EU..

What I don't understand about Remain supporters is why they don't see trade agreements within the EU in the same way as they see TTIP with the US. Trade deals are protectionist. They "are shielded from international competition or given preference in the face of it" (Gerard Lyons). Trade deals do not benefit 'the little people'. Much is being made of that on the TTIP thread but not on this one. Puzzling.

Secondly, we already trade, without trade deals, with other parts of the world. Ever seen a "Made in China" label? There is nothing to stop us doing more trading without trade deals if we leave the EU.

www.onmedica.com/newsArticle.aspx?id=790b96da-0009-417a-9b50-7c3de2ea37ce

According to this article, leaving the EU will harm the NHS; government policies are more harmful to the NHS than the EU is.

Sorry, Day6, but I thought the financial adviser on QT was joking. I seem to recall the audience laughed. Back of an envelope, or fag packet, whichever it was, gave it away. It was only that much because he used 2030. If he'd said 2050 it would have been much more.

Quite sad that you base your argument round that.

Your reply is very selective day6. What particular facts are you thinking of that are fear induced?

I have given you an example of how immigration is largely neutral. Perhaps you could do the same with regard to the remain argument?

"There is a lot of hysteria being deliberately generated by Brexit and papers such as the Daily Mail and Murdoch press over immigration. "

There's also a lot of shameful, scaremongering propaganda going out from the Remain quarter too. Should we decide to leave the EU all hell will break lose according to those wanting to stay. It won't. Tomorrow follows today, it will carry on doing that - we'll just be free of EU control and decision-making.

The Remain policy seems to be based on fear.... a bit like those pesky sales people trying to sell you that very expensive extended guarantee on something that is going to break down in time anyway. You just know the money you coughed up could have been better spent elsewhere.

"I don't know where you get the idea that leaving the EU will save trillions, but even if it does (and most commentators think it won't), it's ludicrous to think it will:"

If you have several billion in the coffers and decide not to pay it into Mr Brussel's account, you hang on to that several billion. And if you decide you are not giving Mr Brussels a penny more but have those allotted but not given billions piling up in your own account, you are considerably better off. The billions gain interest and can be invested.

You might decide to spend that incredible amount of money on Mr and Mrs UK and their children instead and ensure they have decent hospitals, schools, roads, houses, transport systems, NHS and social services.

The saving of trillions was the work of an accountant/financial advisor on Question Time, as mentioned.

Immigration is one issue. The rest have been discussed at length for quite some time on Gransnet.

I hope history won't be changed, because some people are miffed by a couple of comments.