European Union in or out

The sight of Gove, who reminds more and more of the childcatcher form Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, rubbing his hands in glee and proclaiming that the UK would be able to do away with all those -protective- restrictive rules on employment would persuade me to stay in, if I hadn't already decided.

"I liked the comment that it all boils down to your attitude to risk"

The gamble is:

a) One side of the coin is staying with what we know and isn't too bad.

b) The other side is jumping off a high cliff with a teensy chance of finding treasure on the way down, although nobody seems to know what the treasure is.

Only a foolish or hardened gambler would take that risk.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36191577

France say unless the US changes its mind on parts of the TTIP, discussions will grind to a halt.
Another reason to stay in the EU.

Same here, Welshwife. They do not want us to disseminate the information, do they?

www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/03/greenpeace_leaks_ttip_texts_reveals_strained_negotiations/

This is important as well, though. TTIP negotiations have to be leaked for the ordinary person to know what is going on.
Although this article stresses that the EU/US deal would weaken environmental concerns, if we left the EU they would be even weaker. This government is not known for its strong environmental credentials.

I have seen a report today which says that according to the Irish radio/TV network(RTE) that the countries who would be remaining in the EU if UK did vote to leave have now put plans in place to ensure the UK leaves within the two year time scale (18-06-2018 is the date given) and that not until after that date will they discuss any trade or other agreements. The weekend following the referendum has been earmarked for a special summit at which David Cameron will need to give the formal notice to leave the union.
If the vote is to remain, the same team who worked with David Cameron are ready to immediately start further discussions about changes to the EU rules etc whereas if the vote is for out then an entirely new team will take over to enable the exit to take place ASAP.

I tried but failed miserably to post a link!

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/05/03/the-eu-has-done-more-than-any-other-organisation-to-really-tackle-tax-abuse/

That's a good reason for staying in.

www.globaljustice.org.uk/sites/default/files/files/resources/eu_referendum_briefing_web_v2.pdf

A long pdf about it, from Global Justice Now.

Do you think that Brexit will tackle tax abuse? Do you care?

and it is probably the currently undecided who will make the difference.
that's right, Gracesgran, as it is in any election; and the polls are not always indicative of the result - many people may be reluctant to give their opinion to a pollster.

I liked the comment that it all boils down to your attitude to risk - does it seem more risky to stay or to leave?

All we have is speculation. Exactly.

But that is all we have ie speculation about the future.

Brexit has decided that they will stand most to gain if they flog the immigration card. Of course not everyone who votes Brexit will do so because of the immigration issue, but that is the issue they have chosen as a potential winner.

Personally I find it tacky and xenophobic. When I say "to my mind" I would have thought it was self evident that it was not factual.
What is fact is that Brexit have conceded the point that they recognize they cannot win in the economic card.

None of my comments are made on a personal level - they never are.

It has never been about immigration for me, ww, as I explained on previous threads. Nobody has rubbished my arguments, possibly because, like you, they haven't taken them on board. Not that I mind. Just saying.

Saying that something is obvious "to your mind" does not make it factual. You think a vote to remain will mean the future of younger generations will be more secure. You do not know whether it will be at all, and what's more, you never will, whichever way the vote goes. And neither will I. Projections about the future are speculation and that's all.

I am an undecided too - although leaning - the trouble is that I then lean the other way I would say that as sure as eggs is eggs nasty posts will not persuade me to vote for the view that is included in them; in fact they just make me ask if people who need to be nasty can have facts or strong beliefs on their side.

You may argue amongst yourselves (both sides) but the only people you can effect are probably quietly reading and not part of the quarrel or impressed by the extreme remarks. It might be worth remembering that just because you feel your side has demolished or proved an argument you may not be carrying the undecided with you; you may just be appealing to those who already agree with you and it is probably the currently undecided who will make the difference.

(Sorry if that sounds like a lecture but I do want to understand the facts and beliefs of both sides)

Now that the Brexiters have had their economic argument rubbished, and have conceded the argument to remain, does that mean that all they have left to convince the voting public is a tacky form of xenophobia? Which as someone on the Brexit side said the huge economic cost to the UK on leaving is a price worth paying to gain control of immigration.

To my mind if we vote remain then our children's future is more secure, and at the same time we can argue strongly and with due intelligence over the immigration issue. An argument that is both factual and measured without the attendant hysteria seen in the media.

Mrs Undecided here
Getting fed up with the Hokey Cokey now though

Yes, I too wish it was going to be June 23rd next week.

We all know how we will be voting, and have to say, none of the IN brigade have convinced me to stay in, doubtless they will say the same of the OUT brigade.
Just wish it was going to be June 23 next week.

Ah gangy5 some people may not yet have made up their minds.

Perhaps it's time to stop discussing in or out. Comments are getting a little sharp. I for one have run out of puff. Whatever is said I don't think it makes any difference to original opinions on the subject.

Day6 I've just come in and looked at the most recent threads. You complain about the In campaign in effect "flooding" the thread but it seems to me that posts on the In and Out campaigns are fairly evenly spread.

fullfact.org/about/frequently-asked-questions/

Just so you know where I get many of my links from, Day6.
They are a very reputable company; even the government ask them to do research for them, so the links are not left wing. They are factual, unlike some of yours.
Of course, you do not have to believe them, or even read them.
However, your diatribes just show how desperate you are getting.

We're in the wings because we're angels playing our harps in the orchestra!

I've given up posting, because it seems people prefer gut feelings to facts. Happy to see some people are more persisitent.

Has it not occurred to you that BREXITers generally post twaddle and everybody has the right to challenge it? They complain they don't know the 'facts' then ignore them

I have just had a look to see what their views are on the EU.
We have a very mixed bunch!

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I haven't met an MEP in person, but when a group of us (Brits in France) had problems with health cover after a change of legislation by the French government, some UK MEPs were very helpful and supportive and eventually the ruling was changed. We contacted them by email.

although I do know their names and what they stand for