European Union in or out

@Jalima Maybe you think my posts have been vitriolic. From my point of view, I think it's very likely that certain politicians will be more powerful after the referendum, if the UK votes to leave. I happen to think their policies are not in the UK's best interests and are not a better alternative to the EU. It is difficult to ignore Johnson, because he has gone out of his way to make it a personal matter.

So it has began- before the BREXI decision- immigrants coming from France have cottoned on to the fact that the crossing is short ...

Just read a book about the Catholics in Elizabethan times who emigrated to France to prepare a return to the UK to bring catholicism back and overthrow Elizabeth- even then, they made the short crossing from France, Beligium or the Netherlands - so with modern boats, it won't be difficult- there are still 100s of miles of un-inhabited and unprotected coastline. Shalle be ask Donald for the plans, re the wall. Will the French pay for it, I wonder? (not)

Gove and Boris J have claimed Cameron wasn't telling the truth when he claimed he would cut immigration numbers - in the lead up to the general election. Yet they remained silent when Cameron made the claim

Australia have never been relaxed about Brits visiting (except criminals of course). Even pre EU I could visit many European and othe countries on bushiness, but not Australia. Sorry, a bit off topic.

Surely that is a very small minority, JessM?

And there may be people who would welcome more relaxed rules allowing Commonwealth members and people from elsewhere in the world to be able to come to the UK who have to jump through so many hoops at the moment.

There are racists who don't like black people but who are not anti-EU white people. They may not have not worked out that if we leave the EU there will probably be an increase in immigration from around the world. Because the UK economy - particularly in the booming SE, the NHS and the care sector - needs immigrants and they are going to come from a wider range of countries. This is what Farage would like in effect when he talks about a points system.

Yes, I realise it transcends party politics daphne
But when some posts continue to be so vitriolic about certain politicians who are leading the Remain campaign when the poster is clearly for Remain it is very offputting, especially for those still undecided.
Surely people can rise above party politics for once and send out a positive message otherwise it is likely to have the opposite effect on the waverers.

This is what is missing from the "Vote Leave" posters

A quote from John Major, with which I agree:

"Vote Leave has consistently failed to tell us how they see the UK outside Europe. They have glib slogans, but no solid detail."

@Jalima

The referendum isn't (or shouldn't) be about party politics. Political parties come and go. Today's politicians will be history in twenty or thirty years, but the UK will still be living with the outcome of the referendum decades from now.

I will have to grit my teeth to vote on the same side as Cameron and Osborne, but I will. Those who want to leave still haven't come up with a considered alternative. They have come up with various scare stories and empty promises, but that's it. I find the aims of the politicians campaigning to leave to be abhorrent. Boris Johnson, in particular, is a disgrace to serious politics, but some of the others are more devious.

Come on Petra, cue for music and a few high kicks

I am because those who appear to want to stay in (on GN) are totally against those politicans who are campaigning to stay in

or is it me .....
No wonder we are

Petra Petra So good they named her twice. Thank you Jess.

Argument ... or debate? Surely it's good to listen to both sides and make an informed judgement?

Thank goodness my ballot paper has just arrived, I can now make my mark, post it and forget all the arguments.

For those who think that Brexit will mean the end of TTIP, as David Davies said on Question Time.

theconversation.com/fact-check-is-brexit-the-way-to-escape-ttip-59943

I taught some of the Vietnamese boat people, GandTea. We welcomed them, too.

Anyone know anything much about the Reformation?
This is an interesting article.
theconversation.com/its-remain-not-leave-that-captures-the-independent-spirit-of-the-reformation-59832

MY neighbour goes on about "feeling a stranger in her own country" when I challenged her to explain, it is mostly those that have been here for many years that she is talking about and not recent immigrants. We actively encouraged immigration from the West indies and greeted Ugandan Asians with open arms. I actually consider her opinions racist, and yet they are quite happy to spend 6 months of the winter in India. But I don't intend to fall out with my neighbour so I refuse to discuss it with her.

I think some consider immigrants to be those that have been here for years or have entered illegally, neither of which will change whatever we decide about the EU.

I am NOT suggesting, or have seen any reason to suggest, that anyone posting here is racist, so don't think I have anyone in mind.

Oh PetraPetra you know perfectly well the Turkish visa waiving is only for holiday makers and Turkish grans wanting to visit their families. They can come anyway with a visa they would have to pay for.

over the hill That's exactly how I feel overrun, a stranger in my own country at times.

Interesting quote from James Cleverly (MP) on Breakfast this morning. The stay campaign are stating that it's going to be harder for people to work and travel in Europe if we leave. But why are they making it easier for Turks to work and travel in Europe?

Roses. I think your memory is playing tricks.
She got Osborne to agree with Len McKlusky, then Frances O'Grady, and then said,

"Thank you, Mr Speaker. Last week, the former would-be leader, Michael Portillo, said of the Queen’s Speech:

“After 23 years of careful thought about what they would like to do in power, and the answer is nothing…There is nothing they want to do with office or power…The government has nothing to do, nothing to say and thinks nothing.”

Even this “nothing” Queen’s Speech has caused a revolt on the Chancellor’s Back Benches, and forced yet another U-turn to avoid the first defeat of a Government on their legislative programme for 92 years. Does that tell us all we need to know about this Prime Minister and Chancellor? It seems that they cannot even get their Back Benchers to vote for nothing without a fight."

All Osborne could reply to that was soundbites.

"She said: “The largest comment against remaining in the EU seems to be all this red tape, this democracy that isn’t happening.

“I’m not sure I want to hand back more power to a government that’s made £12 million (sic) of cuts to welfare, that’s seen child poverty rise.

I just don’t want to see that. It doesn’t seem that if they get all that power they’ll be doing things for the people.

“They need someone to answer to.” "

A comment by someone in the audience on Questiontime last night. Biggest cheer of the night.

I thought that Angela Eagle was having a very off day at PMQ's ( she won? Really?!!)
Just mini rants at the governments..... Where were her questions?Osborne was able to brush her off as easlily as a fly, when he should have felt backed into a corner.This government is never held to account at PMQ's because the Labour leadership just isn't up to it.The only one who can do it is the leader of the SNP Angus Robertson, who is very impressive.

As someone said where you live makes a difference to your point of view. I live in London, a suburb which is now over run with Poles and Romanians. In fact before I reach the general shops I come to a Polish and Romanian shop facing each other on opposite sides of the road. Years ago you might start up a conversation with someone in the supermarket queue but now they are probably East Europeans although they could look English.

You now think I am extremely racist, which I am not. Before I retired, I worked in a busy London Hospital and the dept. I worked in, I was in the minority being white English. However, I liked many of the people I worked with and would wish them no ill. It is the feeling of being taken over especially in this part of the country which I don't like.