EU referendum and older voters

ddill, life may well be better now in the UK than it was before the EU but that is true of many countries, including many that aren't even in Europe, never mind members of the EU. So the claim that it's the EU that has made the difference doesn't stand. It may well have made some difference but clearly other things, entirely unconnected with the EU, have too.

I watched Sky News today and Michael Hesseltine was being interviewed by Murnaghan talking up the case for 'In' and I thought, um, good points. He was followed later by Gerard Lyons , Boris Johnsons economic advisor in his role as Mayor of London talking up the case for ' OUT' and I thought, um, good points.

thatbags, That wasn't my point! Cherry claimed that she was voting 'out' because Gordon Brown sold our gold and our education and health services were ruined. I can't see how the EU has caused any of those.

In addition, I can't see how being old enough to be able to compare life before and during membership of the EU is relevant, if as YOU now claim, the EU hasn't made any difference.

There is no logic in any of those arguments and I'm still to see ANY well-argued reason to leave.

It seems like jumping off a cliff, because it's not very pleasant being in a thunderstorm.

Jalima, I have two children, aged 18 and 23. I know they will both vote to stay in. When I've discussed it with them, they've been amazed that anybody would vote to leave, because they don't know anybody who will. We've discussed why some people might find leaving attractive. Most of the people I know personally will also vote to remain. My children were shocked when I told them that I communicated with people online who want to leave. It made them more determined than ever to vote and to make sure all their friends do. I guess it just depends who you happen to know. All national polls have shown that younger people will tend to vote to remain and that the tendency to vote leave rises with age.

Our children are all thirty something, are intelligent, well read and informed, and have good jobs, two are voting OUT and one voting IN.
I can't imagine them being shocked that some people online want to vote OUT though.

Thank you for your response, ddill. You seem to have misunderstood what I was saying. One doesn't have to be very old to understand that things have improved over the last few generations for people all over the world, not just in Europe. And, given that, it is not illogical to wonder how one would be able to distinguish what were EU-driven improvements and what weren't.

Just as you see leaving the EU as a huge risk, I see staying in it without large reforms as a huge risk. Both are valid viewpoints.

I'm amazed that anyone would be shocked at the news that other people may actually have a different opinion to them...

Was just thinking exactly the same, ana, especially when MPs from both main parties support both sides of the discussion.

Actually, I think saying one's shocked like that is just a way of being disapproving.

Bit immature really.

When people say that they haven't heard a single good argument for leaving, I think what they mean is that they don't like the arguments for leaving. I've heard good arguments for staying in but they haven't convinced me it's a good idea.

But it's other people on here who want to go back to what life was like before the EU, who say they remember what life was like before we joined, as if nothing has moved on.

All the people in their twenties to forties that I know will all vote to stay in.
I'm talking about children, grandchildren, nephews, nieces, etc.
They can only see disadvantages in leaving Europe.

I don't believe leaving the EU will entail going back to how things were before the EU. I think that's a very simplistic view.

Is it possible that you only mix with people who agree, or say they agree, with you, dj?

And nothing changed that drastically in the first few years after we joined anyway - it's the later years that have had the most effect on ordinary people's lives. Yes, some may have been for the better, but I'm not convinced that those outweigh the negative effects.

Yes, it's very possible, thatbags. Everybody tends to self-select friends and acquaintances and I expect I know people who have similar values to my own. I work with young people and others with business interests in Europe, so it's not surprising that all work acquaintances are pro-Europe.

Ana, what do you see as the negative effects? Some specific examples would be useful. What are these 'good' arguments? I just haven't seen any which couldn't be knocked down with a feather.

My children just don't know anybody personally who wants to leave. For them, the EU is the norm and they're not unhappy with it. I probably overstated my case when I said 'shocked'.

In any case, how does your claim that it's only been the later years which have had an effect tally with the previous claim that older people have a more rounded perspective, because they know what life was like before the UK joined the EU? That really doesn't make sense.

No, bags. I said nephews and nieces. They come from army families as well as Tory families, and Libdems.
My part of the family are the only socialists I know in the family.
Etc. stands for their friends, so not people who agree or say they agree with me.
I know quite a lot of them who have lived in Europe, want to live in Europe or have European families, and not just my immediate family.

thatbags,

I don't see leaving the EU as a huge risk. One way or other, life will go on. I can see the huge disadvantages of leaving and nobody has come up with a vision of what life will be like afterwards. It's just been a load of scare-mongering, lying about statistics and whipping up nationalism from Vote Leave. Have you actually totted up what they say the UK could do with the money which allegedly be saved? ~lol~ Not only that, but Arron Banks, a major UKIP and Leave EU donor, has predicted that it will cost the average family over £4000pa if we leave, but it's a price worth paying.

How is staying in a risk? We know what the situation is and we can be pro-active about controlling it.

I'm not going to give positive and negative arguments daphnedill, and this isn't the right thread for that anyway.

I'm not fully in agreement with the claim about people who lived before we joined remember what it was like etc. I was in my early twenties so hadn't seen all that much of life by that time! I reckon you'd have to be over 70 at least to have any real idea of what life was like for ordinary families, and then of course it's all going to be tangled up in people's memories with the post-war years etc.

We know what the situation is and we can be pro-active about controlling it.

How, exactly?

I'm going with a gut feeling, ddill, as I did when I voted to join the EU. I posted links on the first thread to articles I thought were good on the subject, including some which argued for Remain.

I don't listen much to stuff about UKIP because for the most part what it seems to stand for is light years away from my political feelings. So don't feel you need to inform me of what UKIP donors have done or will do or think, etc.

One thing I do find odd, though not shocking, is that until very recently the current leader of the Labour Party was a eurosceptic, as he had been all his long political career. Now he's apparently agreeing with the Party policy on the EU referendum. Apparently that's allright whereas, someone like me who changes her mind the other way about the EU is thought to be slightly (or a lot; take your pick) bonkers. I'm not complaining, btw; it's amusing.

PS I haven't asked anybody how they are going to vote. One person outside of Gransnet (who is a gransnetter but hasn't joined in the EU threads) asked me. We established that we will probably vote different ways. We remain the best of friends.

act.oxfam.org/great-britain/tell-your-mp-to-end-the-era-of-tax-havens

Wouldn't have this if it hadn't been helped by finance from the EU.
A good use of my taxes, I feel.

I guess it just depends who you happen to know. Daphne I did say they were not relatives, some I did not know well but happened to be at a function with them.
I bet they thought I was a bundle of fun!
The younger people I asked were mainly employed in many different aspects of employment. I did not ask DGC because they are all under 8. I did ask family who were over from Australia (in surprisingly).

I'm amazed that anyone would be shocked at the news that other people may actually have a different opinion to them...
Actually, I think saying one's shocked like that is just a way of being disapproving
Quite!

I haven't asked DS and DIL what they think.
As I say, some of the answers surprised me, an elderly close relative is definitely voting to stay when I thought he would vote out, and younger people were about 70% out, 30% in.
All thoughtful, well-educated intelligent people, one having quite close links to Europe.

and then of course it's all going to be tangled up in people's memories with the post-war years etc.
Apparently we 'never had it so good' (1957)