Ken Livingstone

That's interesting, daphne. Hadn't realised it was him, that well-known writer for the Sun.

Mann has also called for Kaufman to resign. He's certainly not neutral and is actively pro-Israel, not just anti-Semitic. He strongly supports the argument that it's racist to criticise Israel.

Mann is also anti-Jeremy Corbyn. Last year he accused Corbyn of being sympathetic to child sex abusers.

I find his motivation a bit suspect.

Nevertheless, Livingstone was a fool and should have known better. I've never had much time for him, because I think he's arrogant and he's so convinced that he's right and he's justified in 'saying it how it is' without looking at the wider picture. He obviously doesn't know much about history, but has picked up on one fact to support whatever view he was trying to support. I'm not even sure what his point was.

Naz Shah probably does have enemies in Bradford. She unseated George Galloway by quite a big majority and Galloway then accused her of voting fraud, although he never took any action.

By the way, it was Paul Staines (aka Guido Fawkes), who is very much right-wing, who broke the story about Naz Shah.

I'm usually very suspicious of conspiracy theories, but in this case I'm convinced that there is at least one hidden agenda.

I suspect he is anti Palestine and supports anyone who are also anti Palestine. My argument is that his pro Jewish activities may not be based in anything more than a way to get rid of Palestine.

"John Mann, the Labour MP who is chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group Against Antisemitism, denounced Kaufman's comments as "the incoherent ramblings of an ill-informed demagogue." because Kaufman spoke up for Palestinians.
But maybe you think that's OK racism?

John Mann is NOT anti-semitic, whatever gave you that idea?Just the opposite in fact! that is why he had a go at KL.

John Mann MP is also anti Gerard Kaufmann MP, Father of the House, because Kaufmann has spoken against Israeli action against Palestine.

In the same way that some see anti Zionism/ anti Semitism as synonymous others see support for Palestine/anti Semitism as synonymous.

In some cases this may be true but in others it most certainly is not.

I wonder if John Mann is just anti Arab rather than anti Semitic. Some people cannot separate the different countries/regions that speak Arabic & are mainly Muslim and see them as one homogenous group. Which of course they are not. otherwise they would not be fighting each other!

So when there are hideous atrocities committed by some Arab/Muslim groups all Arab/Muslims have to take the blame even though they are most likely to be the victims. That in my mind is also racist.

Disliking/hating/treating a person or group of people differently purely because of their race/religion/colour /gender etc. is not on.

If someone/group of people behave badly then anyone can dislike the individuals or group because of their actions and attitudes.

I automatically dislike members of EDL because their actions /attitudes are harmful to the majority.

It is of course all well orchestrated and carefully time - but Livingstone was massively stupid to give them the ammunition- can't believe he was stupid +++++ to play right into their hands!

Personally I really reserve the right o be totally anti zionism and Israel's actions in Palestine- and yet totally reject anti-semetism. The two are totaly unconnected as far as I am concerned.

He should say he is sorry for any hurt caused and John Mann should apologise for his lack of control / temper / giving the Tories support for the elections

I think he should apologise to Jeremy Corbyn and the rest of the Labour Party for choosing to pile into this debate the week before important elections and distracting the party (and the press) from more significant issues such as the mess Hunt is making of the NHS and the fact that a dozen or two Tory MPs would seem to be facing charges of electoral fraud.
He could also apologise to the Jewish community for any offence caused by his bizarre choice to bring Hitler in when trying to discuss antisemitism in the current day.

The AntiSemitism row was not started by the right wing press, other political parties!

It has been an ongoing internal Labour Party issue ' for weeks 'and has been covered by the media both left and right of politics. It is disengenuous to repeatedly detract from the facts by using the age old act of spinning the truth to deflect from from the question.

Trisha. You call Livingstone an old labourite who holds no power.

Yes he is an old labourite and has interesting political history with his chosen political alliances.. He, like others of his political persuasion, have been more at odds with the Parliamentary Labour Party than aligning with it, that remains the same to date. As for ' Holding No Power ' he was on the side lines until Corbyn and McDonnell brought him back into the inner circle . I don't think there was much surprise in this move as they have been closely connected over the years and share common ground/platforms/allegiances .

Livingstone was given the role of co-convenor on Labours Defence Policy Review in his capacity as a member of Labours National Executive Committee. They side lined him on the Defence Policy Review but he sitting as a member on Labours NEC is not to my mind 'Holding No Power'.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/15/ken-livingstone-sidelined-labour-defence-policy-review-emily-thornberry

Iam64 I agree totally with both of your posts.There are some very strange posts on this thread and another IMHO about it all.Denial, conspiracy theories abound.
Ms. Shah has plenty of enemies in Bradford no doubt, who would be happy to get her out as an MP ( nothing to do with enemies of Corbyn.)KL has been around long enough to know better.

Thanks bags for being technically competent I keep meaning to learn !

All the excuses in the world, or explanations such as you give jen do not excuse the language and attitude of Ken. He's old enough and wise enough to think about the impact of his comments. Today is the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. Jewish families were subject to pogroms for hundreds of years, they weren't called the wandering jews for no reason. The grandparents of a close friend arrived at the turn of the 20th century, driven from eastern europe. They are the only branch of their family who survived the holocaust.
I'm not minimising racism in its many forms but seriously, it doesn't matter to me why and when Naz Shah's inappropriate, offensive comments hit the press. What matters is that she made them. Inexcusable, as were Ken's comments.

I also read an article recently that praised Naz Shah. I'll see if I can find it.

The article by Jonathan Friedland that iam reffered to.

I'll just have to be patronising and tedious the.
Why do you think this was brought up now, Iam?
Why not when Naz Shah was standing for parliament?
It's because Zac was going to lose the election for mayor, particularly because of his and Cameron's racist electioneering.
Why did nobody check on who wrote the quote in the first place?
Why does that not matter?

Jess, what should Livingstone apologise for ? Either we have free speech or not . Farage who is openly racist is popular in this country , he doesn't apologise

Thanks for starting this discussion Ana. I'm a supporter of Naz Shah. She's a relatively young MP who made offensive remarks two years ago. Her apologies were fulsome and I suspect that becoming an MP has broadened her world view. I'll be happy to welcome her back to the Labour party before too long.

Ken needs to go. I'm another who suspects he has a drink problem, given a number of reports of aggressive behaviour (e.g. pushing a woman over a hedge after a night of drinking at a party) and intemperate statements. To simply equate this storm with the usual accusations against the right wing press or the Blairites is patronising and tedious imo. Ken's comments were outrageous whatever the historical context. He's been a senior figure for years, unlike Naz Shah. He is experienced in the ways of the media and is well aware that much of our print media supports the tories and loathes Jeremy with a vengeance. His ego got in the way of loyalty and common sense is probably the kindest way I can respond to this. He didn't need to tour the radio/tv stations in support of Naz Shah, that matter had been swiftly and appropriately dealt with.

I can't do links, but Jonothan Friedland wrote a good article in yesterday's Guardian which I hope would challenge the simplistic and offensive comments from people who say why is the Jewish community the only one we can't make unpleasant comments about.

But Naz was referring to the very close relationship between Israel and America not the Jews across the world , like me she is anti Israel treatment of Palastine

Strange this turns up just before the election for London mayor where we have a Muslim and the grandson of Frank Goldschmidt standing

I only caught a glimpse of the newspaper review this morning , saw an article by Zac Goldsmith and Islamic terrorists plus large photograph of a blown up London bus, anyone know which newspaper please?

Seems that Shah has apologised but KL has not. Time he retired - if he has not learned by now to be diplomatic he's never going to.

I also think there has been a greater reaction to what KL said because of the recent suspension of Naz Shah. She said Israeli Jews should be "transported" to the US. This attitude is reminiscent of Jews being transported to concentration camps. It's not a way to talk about any group of people unless one is rescuing them.

Why is the ranting of one old Labourite who has no power a major news item? I think it is more to do with a right wing press than anything else.

Jews are no more sacrosanct than any other people with a label, whatever the label is. I think Livingstone's comment is objected to on the grounds that it diminishes Nazi oppression of Jews by equating it with Zionism. He said Hitler was a Zionist. This is misleading. Hitler was a Jew murderer. The two are not the same, so saying H was a Zionist clouds the issue. Being a Zionist is not a crime. Being a Jew murderer is.

So this country supports free speech with the exception of speaking of Jews

The most Livingstone can be accused of in this distasteful saga is tactlessness. He, like many people including myself in this country, are critical of Israeli actions towards the Palestinians. However I do not have an anti-Semitic bone in my body, and neither does I suspect has Livingstone.

I am beginning to think that I live in a parallel universe, as I can't remember anyone making anti- Semitic remarks for absolutely donkeys years. I am at a loss to understand this latest episode, apart from the obvious fact that it is a war within the Labour Party. The media need no pushing to do the dirty work for those opposed to Corbyn.

I think we should have a campaign in this country to ban Shakespear and Dickens being taught in our schools. Merchant of Venice and Oliver Twist are anti Semitic