A thread for those who are voting OUT of the EU to make it fair

Hear, hear, Alea.

I love these positively last words/posts you write GJ - 20.43, 20.55, 21.16.....?
More farewell performances than Frank Sinatra!

What is sad and to my mind shameful, is that one of our members who is known for her intellect,her considered and clearthinking posts, her liberal and unprejudiced outlook, not to mention a heck of a lot of common sense should have been gagged by whichever individual felt threatened by her refreshing contributions.
I do not know who was responsible but whoever you are,if you feel chuffed with yourself because you have got one over then I can only say I pity your small minded inadequacy.

thatbags I agree about the distress caused on other threads and I wanted one where we could be pleasant but as you know we wasn't allowed that so I just thought I wont join in any of their arguments just let them get on with it.

I bet Hilton isn't a Putin or a Trump supporter either.

The Times Red Box podcast with Steve Hilton was really interesting. I was interested (and agreed with him) to hear him say that both sides of the EU Ref campaign have oversimplified the issues and that he himself, after doing a test with serious questions about the issues, came out as 75% in favour of Brexit. I wish I could do this survey/questionnaire because I think my percentage score would not be 100% for Brexit either, possibly by a long way, but it would be the majority percentage.

Apparently you can subscribe to these podcasts via Facebook.

And the interviewer did not constantly interrupt him when he was answering a question. I've a lot of time for stuff Faisal Islam says on many issues, but boy was he irritating when interviewing Gove. Gove was irritating too, in the way of politicians.

Well I've read all the posts on this thread and I'm still voting out.

Maybe all those currently living outside of the UK who say they will have to return to the UK if the out vote wins, will understand when they get back here why so many of us who still live here want out.

Oh thatB- how much more sneering can it be to say that 'some people' do not make the difference between 'who and what'? when Putin and Trump are listed as who... come on, truly, really. Impossible not to reply, sorry.

Signing out right now- and I am so glad I was not there this afternoon, truly.

The sneering tone of comments like "Putin and Trump. Really?" is exactly the sort of thing that makes people want outta here. I'm off to listen to a Steve Hilton podcast. If you want to think I'm a Putin and Trump supporter, go ahead, but don't you see how unreasonably thick-skinned one has to be sometimes on GN when people sneer like that?

Of course the many complex issues matter most and should lead us to our conclusion, but if we have political leaders and most of us have supported at least one of their parties, then it makes sense to respect their judgement.

So when you post (I quote): "last post on this thread", jura, you don"t really mean that?

But thank you for the laugh. There was another earlier I had from a post of yours. I've forgotten what it was, just remember that I was amused

Who and what generally go hand in hand ...

Putin and Trump ... really?

So, in short, for me it's not about who but about what. A lot of people don't seem to make a distinction between those.

I don't actually think more highly of many of those on the first of varian's lists than of those on the second. Not that it's about what other people think, as rose's says. Gove also makes the point that what the electorate want is what's important (we are talking democracy after all), not what leaders and elite politicians want, that matters.

I started lsitening to the Sky News interview of Gove by Faisal Islam. I only got five or so minutes in before it was driving me potty. I much prefer the formal debating style to constant interruptions when someone is trying to say something, whoever the someone is.

Gove and Boris and others whose names I don't remember (nor do I need to) have mentioned the democracy aspect. That is the idea that is influencing me more than anything else. It's ideological. I'm simply not convinced by anything I've read or heard that the EU is democratic enough. I don't think the UK is either but it's a smaller entity and more adjustable by its electorate.

Those inclined to support the leave campaign like to say they want decisions affecting the UK to be made by our own politicians.

David Cameron, Jeremy Corbyn, Tim Farron, Carolibe Lucas, Nicola Sturgeon and Leanne Wood are our own politicians - the Remain campaign is supported by the leaders of all our political parties, except UKIP

Plenty of argy bargy indeed- but never a thread exclusively for some and with others being told not to take part- even when mentionned by name, or as 'she' or 'they' which is amazingly rude. Last post on this thread.

Not true at all granjura there has been plenty of argy bargy on here in the last few years, we did not all agree to disagree.More to the point, we do not need posters continuing to stir the pot.So don't.

The more important thing Varian instead of naming foreign leaders, is what us, the great British public want.

brilliant post varian ...

Yes obione, I think that is what it was about- plenty of disagreements in the past, but there has never been a thread where some were told not to comment, and where posters were personally rude about some members elsewhere, and used words like 'she - or they' - without giving the right to respond. That is why it was a very sad, and very divisive day on GN. In the past, most seemed able to agree to disagree...

Yes, I think your conclusions are right thatbags and HQ thought this thread was actually banning input from some quarters, which of course it wasn't. this post will automatically destruct in 30 seconds.

Are they just saying that the thread cannot be exclusive? Which is fair enough.

Our leading politicians disagree about many things but when so many do agree it should make is think again.

David Cameron, Jeremy Corbyn, Tim Farron, Caroline Lucas, Nicola Sturgeon, Leanne Wood, Barack Obama, Angela Merkel, Enda Kenny actually all agree that the UK should Remain in the EU.

Nigel Farage, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, George Galloway, Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen agree that they would like us to leave.

Which team is more likely to be right?

Glad someone got a giggle, practical

I'm going to try and write down my conclusions to this hooha. If this gets deleted too, I obviously have not yet got the knack of writing a dispassionate argument. Let's take it as read that the way I put it before was too, ahem, forceful for some readers though I was only saying what I think.

So! I've come to the conclusion that although, as empirical evidence shows, there exist on Gransnet threads where, by agreement after a desire for no arguments/disagreements/"argy-bargy" has been expressed by one or more posters, the thread remains non-argumentative but rather simply supportive of the various posters, or of some goal they are aiming at, for some reason this could not be allowed on this thread.

Put baldly as a matter of democracy on GN, I understand the idea of threads being all inclusive. Empirical evidence shows though that there is in fact some of what might be called self-selecting in threads and I think that's all this thread was really asking for. Where my understanding starts to go awry is that when you take into consideration the fact that there were several other threads where argument on the subject of UK EU membership was already underway and thriving, why did some posters feel the need to argue on this one as well? I'm tempted to think (without looking to check, I have to admit) that argument/discussion had got a bit stale on the other threads but that this one provided attractive, fresh 'bait'. Part of that thought also wonders (also without checking) if perhaps the reason the discussion had got a bit shall we say one-sided in those other places might be because people like me had felt overwhelmed by the sheer 'bombardment' (others used that word) and wanted to go somewhere where they could discuss the reasons for their decision about the referendum vote in a place where, they felt, people understood where they were coming from.

If my surmises about the other EU Ref threads are wrong, and discussions are in full flow and jolly interesting, then my lack of understanding of why anyone felt the need to argue on this one is complete.

I'm keeping a copy of this in case it gets deleted. Paranoid!? Who, me?

The saddest day on GN indeed! certainly a lively day though nothing like at the last General Election ( when the Tories won.)?

thatbags I had a giggle at ( I'd better bugger off or I'll be deleted!) reminded me of a thing I saw on TV where someone said that and went pop deleted. aw so don't go getting deleted

Perhaps it's just best to keep one's thoughts to oneself, then you're not going to fall foul of anyone. At the end of the day, however this wretched referendum goes, the world will keep turning, and as an elderly lady whose husband I helped care for, once said to me over?? 'We'll get over it'!