A thread for those who are voting OUT of the EU to make it fair

If we have no hope of reforming from within, how on earth can we influence from without?

The rest of Europe will club together against the UK in whatever way they can. Do you truly believe they will want to negotiate for financial services to remain in UK, and energy, IT, and agricultural exports, and what little manufacturing there is left, etc?

Oh I'm not asking people to vote for the reason that my sons job is dodgy, I am making the observation that this will be repeated all over the UK and this hasn't been given any consideration as far as I can see.

Of course they will, petra. We'll still have no influence at all, and they'll have a stick to beat us with for years to come. I'm sorry, but I can't vote a certain way just because some people's family members may lose their jobs...

An interesting little item on Welsh news - they were looking at company based near the Menai Straits who make a lot of dairy products.they sell the greatest proportion of their goods to the EU and only something like 3% to the rest if the world. A lady from the company said that it was very easy trading with the EU countries as all the rules were the same. She said people talk of it being the same if we have an agreement like Denmark but she said in their experience when they trade with Denmark there is a 30% tariff! So not the same as trading with the EU. I had no idea that sort of thing happened did you?

If we stay, and I think we will, they will make us pay for this.

The BBC link about government aid for steel was from the end of March and has since been shown to be wrong.

Every vote for Brexit is a nail in my sons job. Coming out of the EU will mean almost immediate loss of his job. I am so worried for him.

I am one individual, and feel the worry and helplessness in the face of what is being said by so much of Brexit.

Times this by thousands and I know how worried so many people will be feeling. How can people be so unfeeling?

It's the 'try and reform from within' argument that is so implausible. How on earth's that going to be allowed to happen? The UK will be at the complete mercy of the head honchos if we choose to remain.

Our largest energy companies are German, French and Spanish- so it is of concern if we Brexit imho.

Ever since Mrs T, there has been an obsession with privatisation and selling off everything that was State (us) owned- making us pawns in so many possible battles- especially with practically all energy providers being foreign now. And globalisation is also responsible for the closing of so many businesses, not the EU- and change in shopping practises.

Many of our generation shop on-line, be it for books, clothes, photography, gadgets, electricals, etc, etc. For our childrens' generation this can be multiplied by 10. DD1 never ever goes to a shop these days if she can help it. So no wonder retail shops are closing and out towns slowly become deserted- and young people un-employed. Nought to do with EU.

kitty- many of us are not totally sure- and do have all sorts of issues with the EU- but on balance, having taken so much information into consideration - have decided that it would be best to stay in and to try and reform from within. In a debate with those who do seem to be totally sure that OUT would be best- it's only normal to attempt to debate and give the counter argument- I hope.

That statement about the support of business etc is interesting as Carwyn Jones has just been to India to discuss with Tata steel the Assembly giving them some aid. I wonder how that works - maybe because it is a more 'local' Govt?

The EU does not seem to say that the Govt cannot own Royal Mail etc or the Mint - it is Osborne and his mad desire to privatise so much which I cannot understand.

The link you give is very interesting - but is very one sided. The most dangerous person we have near us at the moment is probably Putin - he is desperate for us to leave the EU - as it could well lead to an eventual break up of the Union and would make it easier for him to over run the countries near to him again - these are countries which have developed well since being independent of Russia and joining the Union - they do help to keep us safe too.

Hmm...kept that quiet, didn't they?

The EU rule is about state support of a business:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35933904

Part of the report below:

The UK government has said it will consider helping Port Talbot steelworks - but any intervention risks falling foul of European Union state aid rules.
The EU does not allow state support of a business if it would distort competition in the single market.
The final decision on whether state aid is allowed is down to the European Commission.
Because the European Union already produces more steel than it needs, the member states of the EU agreed to allow uneconomical producers to go bust, rather than let governments save them

That's if you believe it Jalima ( about St Jeremy) because I certainly don't
I still don't understand why the U turn.
And, rosesarered, I hadn't heard anything at all about him going to Syria, but I may have missed that.

(conversions occur on the road to Damascus apparently)

Is there an EU directive about Govts owning property? I thought that the French Govt owned certain things here so if that is the case UK should be able to as well. I understood the sell offs were to be able to spend the money on other things. Very interesting if that is true - I shall have a Google to see.
Much of the legislation whether EU or UK is written in such googldy gook that it is hard to make head nor tail of it. I have tried to verify any facts as I think that this whole referendum is too serious a thing for us not to be informed about but it is difficult to get to the truth when people on both sides make such outrageous claims - most of which should be verifiable. The remain camp was slow off the ground to start with and I think Nigel has been going on for so many years that it is almost impossible to think that he is so blatantly lying - if the vote is to leave I wonder what he will do next? He is a very good speaker - far better than Boris or Gove.
I notice that someone said about her husband being a strong Union man and all that they had done for workers rights etc. I agree with that but I also think that the EU was able to help them get even more rights as the laws were agreed and imposed. It is via the EU that Agency workers should be paid a proper rate for the job and also have holiday pay. With these zero hours contracts I think that is a very important right- many Health and Safety regulations also come from the EU - some are a tad over the top but many are sensible and of course there are ways of interpreting the rules. It is these and other workers rights that I think are in the most danger of being lost - we are not told what the loosening of the rules actually means and although it will not affect me it will affect the younger generation.
Everyone has their vote to use as they wish. I think many of the remain camp are just so worried as to what will happen to this changed UK if we are once again left to the vagaries of whoever is in power at any time. The UK has changed but the people who are elected to run our Govt of any party still tend to be of the old school type - you only need to watch the House of Commons to see that - they do seem to be a bit more reserved and serious in the EU Parliament but maybe that is because many are listening via headphones so are seconds behind the debate.
As to the polling cards being sent to non British people - it could well be to do with how the electoral roll forms were filled in. Some of the people filling them in would not necessarily be fluent in English and understand enough to complete them correctly. Years ago I remember that in our ward at home a lad of about 9 was sent a voting card - this was an error on the part of his parents when they filled in the form. The parents actually took him and his card to the polling station but of course he could not vote - made the local paper.

I try to pass so-called 'facts' through a reality filter first.

Silly me, of course, a cunning plot, a fix! How naive can you be! No wonder I get shouted at!! such dishonesty simply didn't occur to me, I genuinely believed there was a mistake. My grandson is forgetful, but not, I hope, dishonest. (Slinks away!)
kittylester, I'm clearly not sure of anything, so you won't be patronised by me!!

I'm not sure of my views, kittylester, but I try to be sure of my facts.

Hey ho, anya. I don't think they can help themselves. ?

It's the patronising arrogance from some people on political threads that stops me having my say. It must wonderful to be sure of one's views!

I agree with petra

www.vernoncoleman.com/euillegally.html
was we taken into the eu illegally ?

nigglynellie I think you'll find that the voting cards were an 'admin error' mmmmm.
Me thinks not.