A thread for those who are voting OUT of the EU to make it fair

No it was a time lapse in posts - see the quote at 11.46:48

You've lost me there Mamie - are you suggesting that the principle of democracy and legitimacy of law-making is nonsense?

You are surely not suggesting that this nonsense should be taken seriously?

Lucky We have recently been celebrating the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta which initiated democracy in Britain that has been copied around the world.
Yes all decent countries have democracy. There was a man on TV the other day lived in Russia when it was communist and he said that's the way the EU are heading to be like Russia was and the people wont like it at all.

*practical" this was the quote in the text posted by *synonymous".
"The Arc Manche is one of the five transitional regions that is to replace England and Scotland which will then cease to exist as we know it. The Arc consists of the southern and south eastern coasts of Britain and the northern coast of France together with a part of Belgium. This area will comprise the following County Councils of Kent, West Sussex, Hampshire, Brighton and Hove City, Southampton City and Devon. On the other side of the channel, the Arc Manche comprises Brittany, Normandy, Calais and part of Belgium. The Arc is to be the first Transnational Regions with others to follow - it is particularly important because it includes both ends of the channel tunnel - both the south English coast and the tunnel will be placed under French control. Its administrative capital will be in Paris and its President a Frenchman. "

I am trying to point out that it is utter nonsense.

Mamie Arc Manche (French: arc, "arch"; and La Manche, "the English Channel") is a co-operation network aiming to gather territories bordering the Channel in France and in Great Britain, to advocate the shared interests of this area and to promote Franco-British co-operation.
Nothing to do with the eu it is an agreement between Britain and France the same as the migrant camps are.
You would do better to be more interested in the north sea where the eu has stolen our fishing waters to give to Spain.

practical you are in a quandary. There is a right wing power grab - it may not succeed but who knows so you pays your money and takes your choice.

Re TTIP, it is dying a death in the EU because so many countries don't want it but those leading the out campaign have said they would negotiate such a policy for the UK. It is a policy for extreme capitalism (nothing to do with conservatism) which is just what Boris and Gove want and they are aiming to lead the government after the referendum. They may not succeed but if "out" wins they will have a very good chance of doing so. Your best chance to avoid TTIP is the EU.

Honestly I think there is nothing to it. If it was a bonkers idea being floated by someone (which I doubt), then I can absolutely assure you that the French would have nothing to do with it. I think people sometimes forget how patriotic and protectionist the French are!
The French will not accept TTIP either, by the way.

Synonymous
that is correct the information you received. They have got ZONE numbers ready for us I can't remember the number zone each area would be but we would not be Great Britain.
It makes me sick to hear all the IN lot on tv saying the eu is not perfect and just needs changing here and there, the heads of the eu have already said we cannot change their plans for greater integration. Cameron has already cut our forces ect down ready to have one force for all Europe, and have no doubt this force will be to stop people rioting if they don't like what the eu are doing

No, I am very definitely not sunseeker. I see a lot of "out" voters on here who show no signs of being either far right or bigoted. On other forums I also see the most xenophobic and racist remarks and they are certainly not voting "in".

I am only about three quarters "in" myself because of my concern, not about the democracy of the EU but about how little information we are given by our own government about those democratic processes. In my previous post I was talking about the "out" talking heads and the leadership of the campaign; they appear to be both very far to the right and on a power grabbing trip.

Perhaps you should read what I wrote again with that in mind.

I know you were Mamie I am pleased that you were able to do the French bit as well since my French is not up to snuff for that. I am still concerned about it.

Gracesgran I don't want a right wing government but neither do I want a foreign government who I can't vote out I could vote any government out who we vote in. As for the NHS I don't think anyone likes Jeremy Hunt but if you get the TTIP agreement that the usa is talking over with merkel you will get a private NHS owned by America and charging their prices. Not to mention in that agreement they can plant gm food all over our land. We was the 3rd largest economy we have slipped to 5th. As for needing teachers from abroad we only need them because of the influx of others and there is no classrooms for them anyway.

I was very careful to refer to your "source" i.e. the person or organisation from whence it came.
I have read as much as I can in the time in English and in French and can't find anything to suggest that there is anything more to it than is clearly stated on the official websites.
I am forced to conclude that the tract sent to you is somewhat - er - evidentially challenged.

Gracesgran You are assuming that everyone voting out is a far right bigot. Whilst some may be, the majority I believe are not. Isn't that the same as saying all those voting in are far left communists? Two equally ridiculous assumptions.

When one puts something up for consultation it is really interesting how a reported article is assumed to be one's own!
My inbox does not ask me what I want to accept into it either and I didn't realise it was possible to do this. Clearly technology is advancing too fast for me!

It would appear to be so at first glance but I would be interested to know if anyone has scratched deeper - and where they have scratched. There are always multi layers and levels which are rarely apparent on first inspection. I too would be interested in some robust evidence.

Synonymous* I read not further than the first line the ^" ... controlling body of the EU, the European Council (which incidentally is unelected)"

You really shouldn't be so prepared to accept strange emails and it is simple to check. The members of the council comprise the Heads of state or government of EU countries (voted in to that position by whatever is their own form of democracy) they propose the European Commission President and this is voted on by the European Parliament. I would hardly call that unelected. OK the UK didn't vote all of them in but then why would they? This represents all the countries.

No Luckygirl Deciding to vote out does not make someone who is anti-immigration but it is the main argument from the "outers" at the moment so I wonder who they are talking to.

It "appears to be" because that is what the evidence tells us. There is no evidence for the interpretation that your source puts on it; for example, the Arc Manche is an Anglo-French project to protect the marine environment in the Channel.
I can therefore only conclude that your source is misinformed, until you provide robust evidence to the contrary.

Mamie 'Appears to be' is clearly the right words. Seems crazy to split the UK up into fairly arbitrary 'regions' with bits of other countries unless it is part of a 'divide and conquer' scheme.

I am with you Luckygirl

We throw away our heritage and ignore the lessons of history at our peril! I know that my own parents would be appalled if we allow everything to be thrown away that they and their generation fought for so hard and long together with all that has been achieved down through the ages.

I am also disgusted by "Project Fear" and the conclusion reached by Cameron and his ilk that we are not capable as a nation.

Which of these regulations are you so against lucky?

I have been impressed by the lack of right wing anti-immigration tub-thumping in the run-up to the referendum. Deciding to vote out does not make someone anti-immigration.

My decision is primarily based on the anti-democratic nature of the EU. We have recently been celebrating the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta which initiated democracy in Britain that has been copied around the world. And yet we have finished up in a situation where we are ruled by regulations that have not been arrived at by a democratic process - they therefore have no legitimacy. This has to be wrong in principle.

That's it decision made and vote posted, no going back now.

Well first of all "Synonymous" I think you need to clarify where this comes from.
A quick Google gives me this link to Intereg
www.interregeurope.eu/about-us/what-is-interreg-europe/
It appears to be a body supporting regions in working together in areas such as low-carbon, environment efficiency and joint research projects.
I can find absolutely no evidence to support the thesis described in your quote, so I think you need to explore the source a little more for us.
Apologies for intruding on your thread.

I was sent this and wonder if anyone else has any information on this plan?

BEGINNING
Re: European Referendum
In 2007 the controlling body of the EU, the European Council (which incidentally is unelected) met in Lisbon to set in motion a new Constitution for Europe known as the Lisbon Treaty. As I understand it this was to modify and replace the founding Treaty of Rome, together with the 1992 Maastricht Treaty which itself had been purposely drafted to drive forward the integration of Europe. All 27 member states as they were then were obliged to ratify this New Constitution by December 2009.

In its 2007 pre-election manifesto, the Labour Party promised British voters a referendum on this proposed New Constitution formulated under the Lisbon Treaty. Sadly Gordon Brown the then Prime Minster, reneged on this promise and instead steam-rolled the Lisbon Treaty through Parliament just days after the Irish had voted NO to this proposed Constitution in their own national referendum.

My research have lead me to conclude that the EU is not just a free trade area, a common market (which we all signed up for) but its core proposal and intent is to bring about a FISCAL and POLITICAL union. Very few people are aware of the plans Brussels has been implementing since 1990 under both the Maastricht Treaty and the Lisbon Treaty. The 25 year plan known as “INTERREG” is to create a Europe of the Regions, a super-state to permanently overcome old borders in an endeavour to achieve a united Europe. Our Government has already devolved its own Union into its own constituent parts with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland having their own parliaments since 1998. But under “INTERREG” the EU is preparing to divide Britain into three- five regions, all being joined to areas in other European countries. Each new zone is to have its own assembly and flag.

The Arc Manche is one of the five transitional regions that is to replace England and Scotland which will then cease to exist as we know it. The Arc consists of the southern and south eastern coasts of Britain and the northern coast of France together with a part of Belgium. This area will comprise the following County Councils of Kent, West Sussex, Hampshire, Brighton and Hove City, Southampton City and Devon. On the other side of the channel, the Arc Manche comprises Brittany, Normandy, Calais and part of Belgium. The Arc is to be the first Transnational Regions with others to follow - it is particularly important because it includes both ends of the channel tunnel - both the south English coast and the tunnel will be placed under French control. Its administrative capital will be in Paris and its President a Frenchman.

The Atlantic Region: includes Western parts of England, Wales and Northern Ireland which they propose joining with Portugal and Spain.
The Northern Region: has eastern England and parts of Scotland joined with Norway, Sweden, Demark, Belgium and the Netherlands and parts of Germany.

There are five stages to “INTERREG” and we are currently in the fifth and final stage 2014-2020. If this plan succeeds it will divided Britain up and place each Region under foreign control. I understand that Germany is the one country not to face fragmentation. That will enormously increase Germany’s power which is already great as she is the largest country in the EU and her banking system is already controlling weaker EU Nation states. The rest of Europe including Britain will be balkanised into ineffective little statelets (the Transnational Regions). Both Napoleon and Hitler attempted to destroy our national sovereignty, freedoms and democracy and many during the first and second World Wars gave up their lives to defend our freedoms.

Given the aforesaid information is true I would be pleased to learn
(i) Why successive British Governments (both Labour and Conservative) have withheld this critical information from the general public and
(ii) Why there has been a total blackout in the national media in so far as these facts are not being disclosed in the current EU referendum debate so that we as citizens have all the relevant facts and can make an informed decision before casting our vote on 23rd June next.

I would be pleased to learn from you whether the facts are as stated and what your observations/views are on these matters.

END OF

So that is what I received and have to say whilst nothing much surprises me any more this does concern me! I will be interested in anyone else's INFORMED take on this.

In any case if we commit to staying in I would not be betting my DGC's future on the plans being changed and an ever more dictatorial regime being put in place.

Please forgive the long post!

As so many of the "outs" have happily joined in the threads that are there for all and there is no "in" thread I see the outs are following the traditions of the far right in separating themselves. Will they shortly be characterising the "ins" as those at the root of all the problem - oh no they are already doing that. From what I read here and elsewhere every problem we ever had in recent years is laid at the feet of the EU and can be cured overnight by coming out.

Listening to "Today" and other programmes it is becoming more and more obvious to me that those leading (loudly) the out brigade are not only aiming for out but also for a very right wing government. They often talk as if that will be the obvious outcome because, I presume, they will not ask the electorate but take power in these circumstances.

I do not want a very right wing government! I like not only the NHS but the idea of the NHS and I am just getting to the stage of life where I may be even more glad for its existence. I believe in National Insurance - giving when we can afford it and benefiting (not a nasty word except to the far right) when needing it. Both look likely to disappear under the far right policies, we will need, so we are told, when and if we leave.

Oh and of course, when realisation hit and the outs had to accept that we need immigrants to help our country continue to thrive as it has of the last 40 years - turning from the sick man of Europe into the 5th largest economy, the immigrants will be blamed yet again for bringing down wages - nothing to do with those paying the wages of course, for taking our housing - nothing to do with the government not building them of course, for overcrowding our hospitals - not an issue of the old and indigenous and a lack of funding from the government of course, or taking places in our schools - the same schools that are becoming gradually without enough teachers, demoralised by extreme right wing outer MPs and underfund by this right wing government as an excuse for privatisation

This has been turned not just into a referendum but a fight for power on the right and on your heads be it if the far right win.