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EU - I'm in a quandary

(877 Posts)
Riverwalk Fri 03-Jun-16 08:39:39

I can't be the only one!

I'm minded to vote out - the main reason being the free movement of capital and labour has resulted in a very low-wage economy and zero-hours contracts (gravy train, inefficiency, lack of democracy, vested interests, etc., also play a part).

However, how can I be on the same side as Bozzer, Gove, Fox, Farage et al - I wouldn't normally give them the time of day. Apart from Gisela Stuart I can't think of any politician I'd be remotely connected to.

Surely the Big Beasts in politics, academia & sciences, unions, etc. can't all be wrong?

As I said, a quandary confused

rosesarered Fri 03-Jun-16 12:32:16

No they are not, and low salaries? hardly.

granjura Fri 03-Jun-16 12:34:35

Oh Alea- here you go again...

Ask any teacher, doctor or nurse about the changes in conditions and whether they'd jump at the chance to go and work where they are more respected, have shorter hours, lesser workloads, etc. Many who have asked recently will just not be able to come anyhow, as their language skills would make it impossible to do so, and their qualifications would have to be approved or up-dated with further years of study.

Our local teachers complained so bitterly last September as one class was going to reach the massive number of 18- other classes are 14 or 15. They all have a half-day off and practilly no reportst to write, no parents evenings, and fabulous facilities. But yes, the amount of GDP per child is much higher too. Education is seen as a priority.

But please, don't make this personal, again.

Alea Fri 03-Jun-16 12:41:27

Which is why I said it might not have been "intentional."
I too am aware/in touch with people who work in the NHS and Education and my reaction to your statement was " Elle exagère".
Complaining about conditions has been standard practice since I started teaching in 1970. Doesn't always mean you vote with your feet!
What I take issue with, is the comment about the expat forums - members of these are most likely preaching to the converted . The suggestion that droves of doctors/nurses/ teachers will decamp to Switzerland or even Australia, is in my opinion overlooked.
So no. Not at all personal, but I reserve the right to disagree.

granjura Fri 03-Jun-16 12:43:05

Here is just one article, from the Independent, re the figures. Of course many apply to go to NZ or OZ - where they don't have the language issues- but Switzerland is definitely on the list too, due to high salary and great conditions, low workload and hours, etc, and respect too. Our Commune, made up of several rural villages, had a real issue with finding GPs to replace babyboomers. The authorities provided a suitable building and all the equipment required on a 0% interest loan- to attract young doctors- again several were recruited from nearby France.

There are so many articles available, from the DailyMail to Pulse. And yes- it is a real worry for the UK. 1000 of German doctors work in Switzerland (in German part) due to higher salaries and better condition too. Same for teachers, nurses, ancillary staff, etc.

granjura Fri 03-Jun-16 12:45:35

We were in the UK very recently and met up with old colleagues form both the NHS and state schools- how they felt was VERY clear. Many of them about to retire or just retired- and all said they wouldn't stay in the system were they younger. None of them are raving lefties, au contraire.

Alea Fri 03-Jun-16 13:00:01

I am not sure how relevant (with all due respect) the views of the retired or soon-to retire are. It is the young professionals in their 30's and early 40's whose views matter (more) to me. They are the present AND the future of the public sector and no-one has raised the so true of "Lefties" or Righties (?) anyway.
Most of them will be voting Remain as that is where they see the future of the UK lying, but I think we need to keep things in perspective and to that end I will not read the Daily Mail!
But just one point - you refer to 1000s of French workers, German doctors etc working in Switzerland. What does that say about conditions in their own (EU) countries and how does it relate to the UK?

granjura Fri 03-Jun-16 13:11:31

These colleagues also related the comments of their own adult children and younger colleagues in the same professions- and of course we also met with our adult children and talked about their friends in those professions too.

I deliberately didn't post from the DM- as said, there are dozens of excellent articles on the same topic from the whole press spectrum, including professional magazines like Pulse and the BMJ, etc.

The comment about German and French professionals and staff was to illustrate that there is a hierarchy on countries in the worls with salaries and conditions- and that young people do wish to move around and take advantage of the best conditions, be they in Switzerland, NZ or OZ or wherever.

Nearby France (near me) and nearby Germany (near Zurich) is suffering terribly from this and are finding it increasingly difficult to keep key staff- who are then replaced by professionals from 'poorer' EU countries- or are then replaced by beyond EU countries, often poorer and in desperate need of those staff for themselves (whom they have trained at great cost) ...

rosesarered Fri 03-Jun-16 13:12:17

Good point!

rosesarered Fri 03-Jun-16 13:12:41

That was to Alea

rosesarered Fri 03-Jun-16 13:14:05

All teachers moan about the profession come near retirement ( my whole family more or less are teachers)

rosesarered Fri 03-Jun-16 13:14:30

Simply because they are older.

GillT57 Fri 03-Jun-16 13:22:04

I dont think it is a case of people not wishing to go into nursing because they think it is below their capabiilities, it is a degree only profession after all. the problem is the number of training places have been cut along with the nursing bursaries which used to attract older entrants. this is not a political point, but I assume that importing already trained nurses from other parts of the EU is cheaper than training them here Devorgilla. So what on earth would happen if we cut off that stream of qualified nurses? I too keep wavering one way and then the other, and I find that it is easier to consider it properly when listing to debates by economists/farmers/students, rather than politicians who to my mind are only looking after their own careers.

granjura Fri 03-Jun-16 13:26:40

Which is why I also mentionned younger colleagues, adult children and friends. Did you take the trouble to read any of the articles on young doctors planning to leave in droves (yes in droves) - most of them are not even fully qualified. We already have a large forecast shortage to replace the baby boomers retiring- so what then?

And I can assure you that the young professionals enquiries about the possibilities to move over to other parts of Europe or Switzerland, NZ or OZ- are not about to retire either. They are youngster just qualifiying and also many a the height of their career, having gathered so much valuable experience on the way.

rosesarered Fri 03-Jun-16 13:29:53

I hope they realise that children in Oz are a lot more 'in yer face' than here then!Teaching there is no picnic.
people go there for a sunny outdoor lifestyle, some like it once there, others don't and return.

granjura Fri 03-Jun-16 13:38:46

Having taught in large UK secondary City schools - I am fully aware that many kids in the UK are very much 'in your face' lol.

Again, one other reasons some wish to teach here, were generally parents and children still have a lot of respect for the teaching profession.

granjura Fri 03-Jun-16 13:39:44

Having taught in large UK secondary City schools - I am fully aware that many kids in the UK are very much 'in your face' lol.

Again, one other reasons some wish to teach here, were generally parents and children still have a lot of respect for the teaching profession.

Anyone who thinks teaching in the UK is a 'picnic' is higly deluded, I'm afraid to say!

granjura Fri 03-Jun-16 13:54:43

Excuse typos ... must check- where is that 'edit' button?

Alea Fri 03-Jun-16 15:00:28

An interesting and very reasonable exposition of a Swiss point of view. It may not make things clearer, but he makes his points well.
(Warning - long!!)

Welshwife Fri 03-Jun-16 15:03:33

The problem as well beRiver that one idea put forward and likely to be out into practise is that foreign workers will not be able to stay in UK unless their salary is above £35K and sadly most nurses are not and neither are young doctors and many other of the care profession.

hildajenniJ Fri 03-Jun-16 15:10:57

"If in doubt, vote out". ?

granjura Fri 03-Jun-16 15:24:32

A very interesting video re Switzerland- such a shame he couldn't say the same in half the time. The short version: in order to get out of deep recession, Switzerland had no choice but to sign bilateral agreements- but to do so they had to accept a lot of things some UK people want to opt out, free movement of people (and immigration in CH is almost twice that of the UK), contributions to the EU coffers, but unlike UK, without having any say in anything at all, and all the same regs and regulations re their produce and exports. And they wasted 10 years to agree- which has taken a big toll on recovery.

BTW, the French speaking part of the country (where I live) and also Basel, are much more pre Europe than the larger Swiss German part.

hildajenniJ Fri 03-Jun-16 15:26:35

When Bulgaria joined the EU the Nursing Home I worked in at the time lost some wonderful Philipino Nurses as the company would not renew their contracts in favour of EU nationals. We got two Nurses from Bulgaria, they didn't have the same language skills, had no previous experience working with Dementia patients and were quite unsympathetic verging on rough with the Residents. They had to be taught basic skills! One of these Nurses was a burns specialist! I dread to think what it was like in their hospitals. They had no loyalty to the company, and as soon as they had been in the country long enough to satisfy the government, they terminated their employment and were off seeking something better. One of them went to the USA. They didn't want to do work as Care Assistants!

varian Fri 03-Jun-16 16:40:59

hildajenniJ - "if in doubt vote out" seems to me to be quite a bizarre piece of advice.

We - our generation has had the advantage of living in a peaceful and prosperous Europe and yet you would risk depriving our children and grandchildren of that advantage - for what?

If you don't have a compelling reason, or are nor sure be grateful for what we have and vote to Remain.

granjura Fri 03-Jun-16 16:51:34

I certainly don't think many British (or Swiss) nurses who worked hard to qualify, would wish to work as care assistants for long. A pity those two were not great at the caring bit (2 examples cannot make a rule though, to be fair)- but many immigrants to realise the only way to move to a country with better conditions, is to make great sacrifices initially.

I have met young doctors and teachers who came to the UK to work as waiters and other jobs in order to acquire a suitable level of English- as they could not afford to attend language school, or to pay for part time schooling and their living expenses. One of them I got to know well, from Eastern Europe- worked for extremyl low wages in exchange for board and lodgings. It should be o surprise that they would then go on to work in their own professions and for much better conditions, when they get a chance, surely.

When I spent 7 months in a Swiss hospital in 1970/71- all the young nurses were either French or British. One of them Susan, spoke hardly any French- and as I ahd just spent 6 months in the UK, I used to help her a lot and we had such a laugh. She was from Yorkshire and later returned home. Wouldn't it be amazing if she was on GN, or if someone knew who she is. Would love to catch up ... some of the French nurses did stay on and marry local guys, and we are still good friends to this day.

rosesarered Fri 03-Jun-16 16:56:41

The hospital ward that DH was in recently was fully staffed by Europeans, very nice people BUT the language 'gap' was horrendous and many mistakes were made with his care because of it,involving both medications and food.imagine that replicated throughout our hospitals.