EU - I'm in a quandary

@Jalima

Don't read them! ~lol~

PS. I think Frank Field has gone a bit nutty. I've never thought much of Kate Hoey or John Mann, who has shown serious misjudgment when using parliamentary privilege. I think it's great there are people in Parliament like Denis Skinner, but I don't (and never have) agreed with him much of the time.

I don't take Johnson's views seriously, because I think he's just out for himself, but I have followed Gove, IDS, Fox, Farage and Grayling for years. They have produced publications, stating how they would like to see the state run. They've said very little about it in this campaign, but I seriously fear that they would get their way if they 'win'.

PS. Hope you didn't read that, Jalima.

Really useful factual, not biased points for and against remaining. I found this very helpful. The EU referendum find the facts at:

hopenothate.org.uk

@pogs

Do you think that 'Big Businesses , the Corporate Elite, the Davos Brigade' will stop controlling global finance, if the UK leaves the EU? I'm afraid I don't think so.

Reform the EU yes, but leaving it, to me, makes as much sense as getting a bit tetchy with DHs in the car, in mid Wales, on a cold wet night, and insisting that I will be happier and more comfortable walking the 50 miles home.
Again, I don't find that a good analogy (for me anyway) as some people may dislike being the EU so much (analogy: dislike their bullying DH so much) that they would rather step out into the unknown and hope to build a better future for themselves away from the confines of a suffocating or unhappy marriage.

I am not saying that is me, as I had made up my mind to vote Stay In today. However, whenever I come on here and read posts from Remainers I am put off again.

But I didn't like the politics of Gove, Johnson and Farage on any other subject
But is that a valid reason to vote the opposite to them?
What about the politics of Gisela Stuart, Frank Field, Kate Hoey, John Mann, Dennis Skinner and (up until the past few weeks) Jeremy Corbyn? Do you dislike their politics or just their view that we should exit?

Ah yes, that 'reformed EU' which we'd have so much influence over if we stayed in...(pigs flying overhead)

No difficult for me pogs as I can't think of a single reason to leave. Reform the EU yes, but leaving it, to me, makes as much sense as getting a bit tetchy with DHs in the car, in mid Wales, on a cold wet night, and insisting that I will be happier and more comfortable walking the 50 miles home.
I can hear only lies and an unscrupulous willingness to fan the flames of prejudice and fear coming from the mouths of the leaders of the Leave campaign. But I didn't like the politics of Gove, Johnson and Farage on any other subject
I can empathise with the cognitive discomfort that some feel though as I agonised for weeks about how to vote in the Labour leadership contest.

Jess M

I do.

I don't ignore all politicians, every business man/women , nor all Remain/Brexit posts on GN but I do try to ignore the bull shit comments that proport to know all the answers and see no grey area or elect to refuse to debate in a manner that might sway me, from which ever direction they come from or which ever social media outlet I am engaging with.

As you are sorry for me I am glad for you to have made your mind up.

Maybe

Sorry you are struggling Pogs .
If you ignore the politicians, the TV and the newspapers, and assume that those funding the campaigns are largely businesses whose particular interests are served by one option or the other, why not just look at the opinions of eminent and brilliant professional such as economists and scientists.
Or contrast with the unprepossessing array of those cheering for an Exit from the sidelines such as Trump and Putin.

DD et al.

They are people with a view , they do not speak for everbody who campaigns alongside them, they are not whom I consider to be the soul Legion of governance after June 23rd.

We will still have our elected government with opposition whether we are in or out or shaking it all about. That's why I find the concentration of some minds on Workers Rights and the Green Agenda as being their predominant message to point me towards staying in pretty much forgettable.

Again the spin that get's no where.

'Who on earth do you think are funding the Leave Campaign Ana if not the business people who want to cut loose from these obligations to their staff'

The other side say 'Who on earth do you think are funding the Remain Campaign if not the Big Businesses , the Corporate Elite, the Davos Brigade who only serve themselves, the Finance and Banking Institutions , you know all the ones I use to call every name under the sun but now
I hold my nose and agree with all they say.

My point being I am listening but ye Gods you have to wade through some hypocrisy from all sides and it makes your head spin. I still do not have a clue which way to jump as I am struggling to find non bias clap trap.

So which rules, regulations and red tape do these people mean?

But not all Workers Rights were established after joining the EU.. Think of the Dagenham Women, Equal Pay and Race Discrimination Laws pre date our joining the EU. Unfair Dismissal Protection, National Minimum Wage, Unlawful Deductions of Pay, are not derived from the EU and the UK has many areas of employment legislation where we choose to have enhanced privileges compared to EU regulations.

This whole Workers Rights Issue is founded on the principal that if we pull out of the EU those shitty Tories will run amock and take away all our Workers Rights therefore we 'must' remain in the EU. The Unions are even divided on Brexit.

This is why I get fed up with the 'might/could' fear mongering strategy in all of this. Like so many aspects of the questions people are seeking answers to it is not a fact, it could happen but equally it might not, it's pure hypothesis.

I know the same old stuff that will spew forth now will be to raise Priti Patel's comments etc. and I am not saying I dismiss the possibility all togethether. I simply don't believe that the government of the day would get it's way.

The EU has produced employment law it is true but I don't think that the UK would not have implemented them anyway over the 40 years we have been members the western world has moved in that direction.

I think the term Red Herring has been used a lot and for my mind, which will be castigated for sure, I think the 2 principles the Remain Camp for Labour have extolled as the main reason to stay in are Employment Law and The Environment. I don't think we would be in a different position from where we are now. We do belong to other World Organisations dealing with Climate Change and I think we as a country probably elect to do a darn sight more than some of the other 27 countries in the European Union in both areas anyway.

It's called "easing the burden on businesses". We know that a % of employers (not all by any means) will do their best to stretch the rules to the limit, and try to find ways to limit staff costs. Look at sports direct, with 70-80% of its staff on zero hours contracts .
Who on earth do you think is funding the Leave campaign Ana if it is not business people who want to cut loose from these obligations to their staff. And maybe yearning be released from the burden of anti-pollution legislation as well. Minute we left they would be lobbying like the devil.

@Ana

Maternity leave was much less generous before 2008. Additionally, many part-time and casual workers weren't guaranteed paid holiday entitlement.

Leave politicians have already stated that they want to rip up EU rules, regulations and red tape (including those related to working conditions). Which red tape do you think they mean?

I agree with you, JessM. I live about 50 miles from London and there is enormous pressure on housing - from Londoners.

The vast majority of people who come to my area are white British and relatively wealthy - typically, they've worked in the City or law. We also have thousands working in bio-technology and IT (boom industries in Silicon Fen).

What happens is that graduates (and others) go to London from other parts of the country to find well-paid work. If they're lucky, they get on the housing ladder by buying an over-priced cupboard, then they decide they'll start a family and want a house with garden and decent schools, so they come to my area, trading their cupboard for a small house, forcing locals out.

I can't open the page by Mark Henderson either. However, here's another one, which is well researched and factual:

www.facebook.com/notes/chris-emerson/why-ive-voted-to-remain-in-the-eu/10153790193179220

Do you really want them all up there, Jess?

My DH pointed out that much of the housing pressure in London is due to young people from the UK also moving there for work. (We can probably all think of someone in our own family or the family of a friend...)
He then went on to raise the issue that longevity of older Londoners is exacerbating the problem. We agreed that it would be a good idea if more of them baled out once their work life was over and made more room for the working population wherever they come from.
I can recommend N Wales

So are you implyying that if we leave the EU we'll suddenly have maternity leave etc. withdrawn Jess? Paid holidays and statutory maternity leave in the UK were in place in some shape or form before the EU ever got involved (which wasn't until 2008 according to my research).

Did you manage to miss the headline, Riverwalk?
The concept came from Corbyn. Civitas agreed with him.

More food for thought if any of you waverers are still dropping by. We tend to take workers rights and entitlements for granted in this country. However they are extremely good and generous compared to the USA.
In the USA mothers are entitled to 12 weeks unpaid maternity leave. That's all.
In the USA the amount of paid leave from work is pathetically small in comparison to what we get; This from Wikip.
There is no statutory minimum paid vacation or paid public holidays. It is left to the employers to offer paid vacation.[129] According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, 77% of private employers offer paid vacation to their employees; full-time employees earn on average 10 vacation days after one year of service.[130] Similarly, 77% of private employers give their employees paid time off during public holidays, on average 8 holidays per year.[130][131] Some employers offer no vacation at all.[132] The average number of paid vacation days offered by private employers is 10 days after 1 year of service, 14 days after 5 years, 17 days after 10 years, and 20 days after 20 years.[130][133]

Yes, durhamjen I've read the article and it's an interesting concept, particularly coming from Civitas.

It could act as a deterrent and put the brakes on future buy-to-let but, like any other practical housing measure, it can't address the insatiable demand due to numbers.

Durhamjen - my best argument for the young people of Durham is:
Nearly every economic expert in the world agrees that there WILL be a recession if we leave. This will hurt us all - we've already got serious problems what with the growing national debt etc. Our economy is limping along injured, and the Leave campaign wants us to throw away our crutches.
Independent report by Price Waterhouse this week predicts the loss of nearly a million jobs in the next 4 years
So there will be job losses. And more austerity.
Is that not a good enough reason to Remain?

Of course they have to live somewhere Riverwalk and no doubt some of them are willing to put up with more cramped living conditions than a young person from the UK.
But what is your point? That the housing shortage in the SE is not caused by these things:
Booming economy in SE
Shortage of local labour to fill vacancies.
Combined with
Pathetic lack of helpful housing policy by governments and B Johnson.
Foreign billionaires from outside the EU being allowed to snap up London property as an investment. Some are sitting empty.
It seems to me ludicrous to suggest that the problem will be solved by getting rid of free movement of EU labour.
My best prediction - getting rid of free movement of labour will initially help to dampen economy in SE - business can't expand if they can't recruit.
Further, and possibly catastrophic downturn, due to financial sector closing London offices.
Business will be allowed to ship in the labour they need from countries poorer than the EU. This will push down pay in hospitality and basic services sector. House the new immigrants in even more squalid and overcrowded accommodation.
Stopping free movement of labour will not, ultimately, reduce immigration. It will add to creating an unnecessary downturn in the UK economy.