EU - I'm in a quandary

The European Parliament is the ONLY level of government in which I am personally represented. I am not represented by anybody from a party I support at town, district, county or national level. I'm sure I'm not the only person in that position.

The European Parliament is MORE democratic than most UK systems (I realise Wales has a list system.)

Daphnedil

That's a statement spoken quite often. So you believe the European Parliament represents you personally better than Westminster.

In that case you are stating you judge the likes of Marine Le Penn, Nigel Farage represent you better than any Westminster MP.

[whodathoughtit]

northeastlabour.us9.list-manage.com/track/click?u=a9d27b8e3f89d2640882a7786&id=534f043fe4&e=176f5844d4

A Labour MEP representing us in the EU

Did I say nobody's noticed, bags? Thought not.
I said it's a distraction from what the government is doing to the NHS and education.

Reasons for disabled people to vote to stay in.

www.disabilitynewsservice.com/wake-up-baroness-campbells-plea-to-disabled-people-over-eu-referendum-apathy/

Last Saturday there was a march in Westminster against the cutting of student nurses bursaries.
I have just been looking for any mention of it in the mainstream media and cannot find it. It was mentioned on the BBC before it happened, but no photos or film afterwards.
Like I said, the referendum causes a distraction from the NHS.

inews.co.uk/explainers/iq/nhs-will-affected-vote-leave-eu/

The local authorities had decided to have a massive clean-up of all illegal immigrants living there.
And then they realised - they couldn't run the resort. Couldn't get it ready for opening, didn't have anyone as lift attendants, cleaners, waiters, etc, etc- and just couldn't understand what had gone wrong

^So its easy to have quotas for doctors and nurses- but hospitals, etc, also need 1000s of ancillary staff.*

But surely it is not legal to employ illegal immigrants knowingly?
The NHS surely does not employ illegal immigrants, only those who are here legally and would continue to do so.

Several high-profile people have been in trouble for (unknowingly) employing illegal immigrants without checking their papers.
Coming out of the EU does not mean that immigration will cease and that people who wish to work here would be banned.

And yes- it is a real worry for the UK. 1000 of German doctors work in Switzerland (in German part) due to higher salaries and better condition too. Same for teachers, nurses, ancillary staff, etc.
granjura - so by this are you advocating that we should vote to come out of the EU? I read your posts as saying that the UK, France, Germany etc are so much worse off than Switzerland (and they are in the EU) and that many from these countries are or are hoping to work in Switzerland which is not in the EU? Therefore it would be better for the UK to leave and negotiate for a relationship such as Switzerland has with the EU?

Logically then, if other, poorer, countries continue to join the EU, then workers from those countries will wish to migrate to wherever the wages/salaries are higher - which could be some of the original EU countries but also Norway and Switzerland.

Still in a quandary.

When I spent 7 months in a Swiss hospital in 1970/71- all the young nurses were either French or British
So, in fact, medical staff have been migrating from the UK and France to Switzerland for nearly 50 years.

Newly qualified doctors were leaving in droves for Australia, America and New Zealand nearly twenty years ago - they were trained, then there were no jobs for them to progress to.

People have always migrated around the world and the debate about migration is not helping me, for one, to make up my mind about the decision to stay or leave.
I am not sure about anyone else who is still undecided.

German surgeons come to the UK to do hip and knee replacements in BUPA hospitals because they can get twice as much for doing them as they can in Germany. The NHS has to pay BUPA rates as otherwise they would be in trouble with their bosses because of the waiting lists. Catch 22.

All empires go through a cycle and the UK is already showing signs of decline. I suspect that future historians will be writing essays on the decline of Britain and leaving the EU will be a nail in the coffin
Of course empires do come and go but the UK leaving the EU could be the nail in the coffin of the EU, not of the UK. It is not the gilded empire that some posts would seem to make it out to be.
The UK does not have an Empire but we do have a Commonwealth with more countries wishing to join which would indicate that we are not, as some like to point out, a little island in decline on the edge of Europe, desperate to hang on to it for survival. We are the focal point for a huge number of countries around the world.

Anyone who has DC or DGC who are able to take advantage of what the EU has to offer (paid for by EU money but ultimately by us) is of course very keen for this to continue. But for every British student who has the advantage of a good education, parental support (and know-how through links or networking) there are several other young people in despair because they cannot get a job as the jobs are filled by other people coming from the EU.

As granjura has pointed out also, educated people are leaving the EU to work in countries offering better salaries.
The economies of some EU countries are on the edge.

Perhaps it is time for the whole EU concept to be abandoned in favour of what it was originally - a co-operative free trade association.
Voting in will mean that the whole cumbersome empire (EU) blunders on, with high-spending officials and those 'in the know' enjoying the benefits and the good life, and the rest suffering the results of austerity.
Voting out could mean an uncertain future economically, not just for the UK but for all of Europe. It depends if you believe the UK is strong enough to survive this and forge a strong economic future on a global scale.

Good post Jalima.

I totally fail to see why anyone is able to delude themselves that we are economically strong enough to thrive outside the EU.
We have a huge national debt that is continuing to rise steadily since the 2009 crisis and the 2010 election.
Here is a clock that shows how fast it is going UP
www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk
£1.7 trillion and rising by £5,000 a second (for anyone who does not like clicking on links)
We are nowhere near even being able to start paying it back. Our health service and public facilities are being starved of money.
How on earth is this a strong economy?
The world's economists overwhelmingly agree that there WILL be a recession if we leave. PCW independent report for CBI yesterday predicts around a million job losses over the next four years. And beyond that nobody knows.
The idea of leaving seems to me to be economic suicide. As if you were on a big cross-channel ferry in uncertain weather and suddenly decided that you don't trust the crew or the structure of the ferry and would be better off in a leaky canoe.
It is far too big a risk to take.

I am the same Jess I think lies have been told for so long that it is a sort of brainwashing or it is something in the water. I don't think that other EU countries will be awful to Brits living in their countries or that UK will throw out EU citizens straight away but I do think that the rights and circumstances will be changed so that many will need to return home.
I cannot understand either the misconception that Brits will do the low paid jobs at present done by EU migrants - they would not do the jobs before so why would they do them now? We were the sick man of Europe before - if we go back to that status we would not be admitted back to the EU again when we realised the error.

I think it's highly unlikely that the UK would ever go cap in hand grovelling to the EU to let us back in...but you believe what you want!

As if you were on a big cross-channel ferry in uncertain weather and suddenly decided that you don't trust the crew or the structure of the ferry and would be better off in a leaky canoe
I cannot see the EU as a big cross-channel ferry.
Sometimes I see it as the Titanic.
Or a boat taking on board so many passengers that it is in danger of sinking.
And some of the crew look very untrustworthy to me, with their own interests at heart rather than those of the passengers.

However, if some see it as that I would say that even large ferries have been known to sink, catch fire etc, sadly.

All in all, not a great analogy for me, sorry.

Still undecided and I think I should stop reading posts from Remainers because every time I read one I think of a counter-argument, although I am not a Brexiter.
It is not helping me at all.
I don't know about anyone else who is undecided, whether they have the same reaction.

@Jalima

The Commonwealth isn't really worth much to the UK from a trade perspective. Two of the biggest countries, Canada and Australia, are highly unlikely to join a queue to trade with the UK. Canada has the richest country on earth on its border and is far more likely to continue trading with the US. Australia is on the verge of wanting full independence from the UK. Over the years it has developed strong trading links with the Far East. It's highly unlikely that it would want to start trading with a small country on the other side of the globe. The countries the UK is likely to want as trading partners are India, China and countries in the Middle East - Saudi Arabia and (perhaps) Iran. The US will possibly try to muscle in on imports. Personally, I'm not too happy about going it alone with any of those countries.

@Jalima

If you don't see a really good solid reason for disrupting the status quo, maybe there isn't one.

Me too Jalima. (18.12)

I am sick and tired of hearing, seeing and reading so much hypocrisy, spin pushed out as fact, pure b----y irony at times everywhere I look.

I think a problem for me is this. When the likes of German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schauble declares basically if we leave the EU the EU will retaliate and will not take kindly to trading with the UK , we will have left 'The Club' so sod them, I think is that all you have. To me if a supposed intelligent thinker is prepared to go that far, out of spite, what should I think about the wording / mantra of the European Union for a desire for a Federal Europe. I think there is no desire about it, it's already happened and what Germany says Germany will get.

Where is the democracy in a Club that doesn't allow nations to make their own decisions without resulting to threats?What does it say about a supposed democratic parliament that one nation thinks it can speak on behalf of all the others?

I really do find if the reaction to Brexit by the other EU countries is to make us suffer for 'our cheek' quite pathetic. The whole level of debate is downright childish and if supposed intelligent thinkers are prepared to cut everbodies nose off, including their own, to save face then that is beyond my comprehension.

If Scotland had voted for Independence would the other 3 nations in the UK have said, bye, we will not trade with you na na na nee na? I would bloody well hope not , I would hope we would be a bit more accepting of a democratic decision being made and do the best to keep the momentum of trade and friendship going as it is in all parties interest to do so. To do anything other would be the route to destabilisation and for what, show of power, what?.

That's why I am struggling which way to vote. I am still head in but heart out and the level of nastiness and petty squabbling is not helping one jot. If this is the level of 'progressive/intelligent thinking' by all parties then they should all be ashamed.

I have been wavering, but have decided to vote remain as my 30 plus son and daughter are voting in. Of course there is a lot wrong with the EU, but if we stay in I think we should all start reading more about what goes on (there is lots on line)and perhaps the media should keep us informed too. Our local meps could be requested to hold open meetings. We need to try and make it work better for us.
I feel the risks of coming out could affect us badly and cause a recession and also affect the rest of the EU.There is a great deal of instability in the world at the moment, so, for me, not a good time for more instability.Whatever the outcome, it has shaken things up in Brussels.

Only temporarily (and a lot if it's just for show) - it'll be back to 'business as usual' if we vote to remain. Although I fear there will be consequences for the UK, and not good ones.

Good posts POGS and Jalima and Ana I think much the same.

My son and ex husband have both been advised by their employers that their jobs are safer if we remain 'in' and I fear that my SIL's company will relocate to Germany if we leave, so I see no reason to vote for something that could jeopardise their future. I do agree that we all need to take more of an interest in EU matters; I'm quite ashamed of how ignorant I am about it all. It may be cowardly to just leave things as they are but I'm not prepared to risk a leap into the unknown.