The one indisputable FACT in this referendum debate

fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-deporting-eu-immigrants/

Did anyone watch the programme on immigration on BBC2 tonight.
Alan Johnson said we do have control over immigration from the EU. We have stopped between 1000 and 2000 every year.

fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

Real facts about immigration from the EU.

@JessM

Filipino careworker contractors do exactly the same. The workers can't work for another employer. The employers pay rubbish wages and often deduct some for accommodation, meals and uniform, etc. It's all perfectly legal.

These are the vultures who will move in if the supply of cheap Eastern European labour dries up.

How do you know we won't be sending anyone home? Have you been promised the PM's job?

Seriously, you don't know. You're not stating facts.

Business owners find all kinds of ways to bend the rules. Where I used to live there was an office block full of Indian telecoms engineers (working for a company subcontracting to BT if I remember correctly). They were employed on Indian salaries and an Indian "expat" deal but they still worked out cheaper than other options. The staff could only work in the UK as long as they were working for this company.

Many different sorts of engineer are on the UK Tier 2 skilled shortage list. If these engineers weren't given visas, it was because their specialisms weren't in short supply or the business wasn't prepared to pay them a minimum threshold.

I don't think he actually runs any businesses, although he's the Chair of many. He's a trained lawyer.

I agree that he's probably being somewhat economical with the truth. Maybe the business wanted to pay these particular engineers minimum wage.

Ironically, he's one of those élite corporatists BREXITERs are always complaining about.

I was surprised that neither Jo Coburn nor Liz whatever (labour MP) didn't ask him why he didn't try to find an European one - does he have a business in India and maybe they are already working for him?

There are indeed many different specialisms within engineering and many of them are in short supply in the UK.
I think he is being economical with the truth because ion EU citizens can come here if they have a job offer. And only if they have a job offer (Unless they have some other reason why they can work here - to do with nationality of parents etc)
If we left the EU he would have to go through the same bureaucratic rigmarole for everyone he recruited from EU as well as from outside it.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15390884

There seems to ba a selective amnesia when it comes to political parties and their promises of giving us a referendum on the EU.

This has been promised by Labour, Lib Dems and Conservatives. Who can forget Tony Blair promising us a referendum ? Who can forget Gordon Brown signing the Lisbon Treaty without the Labour promise being carried out? David Cameron promised to give us a referendum but it had already been signed so it has taken almost a further 10 years for a promise of a referendum to be kept.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-1539088

Mind you WW if we had more time to think we would also have more time to argue

www.digbylordjones.com/oh-for-ten-engineers-to-fall-out-of-the-sky-like-manna-from-heaven!.html

[[http://www.digbylordjones.com/oh-for-ten-engineers-to-fall-out-of-the-sky-like-manna-from-heaven!.html]
He doesn't specify what kind of engineer!

Mine may be the 'wrong sort' like the 'wrong sort of snow'

I do too J certainly. The wrong time - it all seemed too rushed for people give proper thought and the ideas yo settle down. As far as I am concerned I saw very little as to what DC had negotiated in Brussels and the impact it would have so we have hot this far and people are still unaware.

Well, of course, there are many types of engineers!

This from 2013:
Ed Balls has been repeatedly dropping hints that he thinks a referendum is the right policy for us. Most recently, on Friday, Ed Balls said “I certainly don’t think we can ever afford to give the impression that we know better than the voting public.” This follows similar comments a few weeks before (also in the Yorkshire Post). Keith Vaz has been arguing for a referendum ‘now’ for months, and is feeling truly vindicated that so many others in the Party have come round to his position, because “we cannot afford to be painted as anti-democratic”.

Personally, as I speak to more and more Labour members, activists, candidates and those already elected, I see that there is a serious shift. People see the validity of the argument, and mostly think that ‘In’ will win any vote and, most importantly, understand that it is the symbolism of truly consulting the people that matters most. John Prescott saw that, and so he is calling for us to support an EU Referendum, and that is why he was Deputy Prime Minister in one of the greatest governments this country has ever had.

Dominic Moffit is Campaign Director of Labour for a Referendum

So, Cameron was promising what Labour wanted too and which Ed Miliband failed to deliver.

I still think it is a mistake.

Jalima
I totally agree with what you say re Digby Jones and the engineers - I wondered why he didn't look in the EU first where he would have had no problem - he gave no clue as to the type of engineer he needed or where it was location wise.

As to the Brexiters - one is a family member which I had no idea about and initially I thought they were just trying to wind me up - since I have had news that another couple are the same!!! The other people were the first ones I came across and was totally bemused - they have a holiday home in Spain and are well travelled. I said very little as they got so wound up I think it would have affected our friendship - but I have to admit go now feeling totally differently towards them.

So often governments have allowed blame to rest with the EU when it has been their decision not to use the rules available.
I think you're right there, Gracesgran
Or they have done what they want to do, contravened EU rules and taken the consequences!

I did read somewhere (Independent I think, and I am sure I posted a link somewhere) that Ed M refused to countenance a referendum and it was not included in his manifesto, against the wishes of some of his party.

Well I responded to your OP on the other thread as well Anya but here we go again.
EU immigration is essential for the NHS and for the economy in many areas of the country. if they jobs dry up, the immigrants depart. In the main they are coming here to work for a while not to settle. When the construction industry screeched to a halt 7 years ago, Polish plumbers etc went home. The same happened in Ireland when their economy took a dive.
There is clear evidence that immigrants make a net contribution to the UK economy. They went from very rapid net migration to net emigration in no time flat when their economy good a dive.
www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2015/
It is a fact that immigrants make an excellent contribution both in labour and in the taxes they pay.
Here is just one study by UCL.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study
So your OP is based on the false premise that EU immigration is a problem.

And a comment on the throwaway remark above, that those in Calais are all "illegals". Most of them would say they were asylum seekers, which is not an illegal status. They are in Calais because they would like to claim asylum in the UK and not in France. Many of them come from very frightening places. Many of them are very young. In many cases this is because they have family members here who are waiting to take them in. In some cases because they want to see asylum here because they speak English and not French. Many of them have useful qualifications. (This info from a friend who spent a month in Calais camp recently)

Why did our stupid government call a referendum? We vote in governments to make important political and economic decisions, not to leave it up to people who haven't a clue ( me included).

I couldn't agree more suzied . I think they put things in the manifesto because they did not think they would be held to account by winning. It is their job not ours and has cost large amounts of money and energy when they could be doing better things for the country.

Actually,quite a lot of us in the UK wanted a referendum,the EU we have at present is nothing like the organisation it was in the 1970's or even 1980's, a pity it changed.
The OP's opening post is correct, at the moment we have no control over numbers coming here from EU countries.It may be pie in the sky to think the EU will 'reform' itself on this issue.In fact all we hear is the word reform, over and over again.

He should have told Farage to take a running jump.

I totally agree with you suzied. And I bet Cameron's wishing he'd never thought of the idea in the first place.

Because it was promised in their manifesto, which is presumably why some people voted for them.