Gransnet forums

News & politics

The one indisputable FACT in this referendum debate

(337 Posts)
Anya Tue 14-Jun-16 11:18:34

Like many of us, I prefer to deal in facts, not surmise, assumptions, or what might be, or might not happen. The truth is that neither side have a clear idea of what leaving or remaining in the EU might entail, except for one clear fact.

This is, that if we remain, we will continue to have no control over numbers of immigrants from the EU, entering the country.

We all agree that immigration is a Good Thing, but uncontrollable immigration is another issue completely.

Anya Tue 14-Jun-16 11:26:29

Just been told by one of the remainers that no one wants to talk to me about this grin ...wonder why not wink

Pippa000 Tue 14-Jun-16 11:30:32

What I would like to know is just how many immigrants were from the EU and how many were from outside the EU in the last 12 months.

Jalima Tue 14-Jun-16 11:39:14

I have said before and, at the risk of becoming boring, it is the deportation of Commonwealth citizens that annoys me and the difficulties they face if they marry British citizens.
We have made new friendships and alliances with our neighbours (yes, it is a good thing) but abandoned our family in the process.

Has someone pmd you Anya, but will not stick their head above the parapet and post?

whitewave Tue 14-Jun-16 11:41:16

I have answered anya on the other thread.

kittylester Tue 14-Jun-16 11:43:38

I'm still undecided so I'll talk to you Anya.

And, I agree. immigration is good - having no control over it is bad.

Synonymous Tue 14-Jun-16 11:48:21

It would appear that the army chiefs are very concerned about losing control of our army when the EU forms it's own army. Apparently the small print also has reference to reinstating the death penalty in times of war!
Clearly the status quo will never remain the same so it is all to be taken on trust! Very concerning as not one of those in power has demonstrated trustworthiness and since it is not a democracy we will not even be consulted.
For our DC and DGCs sake we need to take back control of our own country and our own destiny as far as we possibly can.

GillT57 Tue 14-Jun-16 11:58:21

I think you are right Anya. I speak as one who will vote to remain, after careful consideration of both sides. I am concerned about inward migration, not because I dont wish to have people from other countries of the EU living and working here, but because I think that these very same people are being used as the scapegoat for the reduced investment in schools, public services, NHS etc. The queues in A & E departments, the weeks wait to see a GP are not solely due to new people in the area. If I open my kitchen doors and invite all neighbours in to eat and drink I cannot blame them if I have not bought enough.

practical Tue 14-Jun-16 12:32:28

A report from the think-tank Migration Watch has predicted that immigration will see Britain’s population rise to 77 million by 2035 and then to 80 million in 2039.

In 2000 the UK population was under 50 million - so the nation would see a 54 percent increase in just 35 years.

Luckygirl Tue 14-Jun-16 12:41:03

One indisputable fact is that lots of people are telling untruths. The proponents for both sides cannot both be right in their facts.

Alima Tue 14-Jun-16 12:49:26

jalima and kittylester, I agree wholeheartedly with what you have posted. Controlled immigration is a good thing. We must not forget those from the Commonwealth and beyond who have a right to lead their lives here.

whitewave Tue 14-Jun-16 12:52:23

I will repeat what I have said on the other thread.

In 1973 the UK joined the Common Market which is what the single market was called at the time.

The single market has 4 pillars. Free movement of goods, capital, people and later services.

The U.K. became part of this single market. It had tried to join this single market without success over a number of years. There has never been any question of this free movement being out of control - it is simply the way the single market is deemed to work.

To suggest otherwise is emotive and incorrect.

Now if we want to look at the way immigration affects various communities, that is a different issue and one I would suggest would be much more productive to those affected by immigration - largely the working class. However, I would argue that culturally we have a lot more in common than some would otherwise argue.

Anya Tue 14-Jun-16 13:10:32

Luckygirl you might well be correct, but that's not actually a fact - it's an opinion. I do agree with you but that's just an opinion too.

I'm not talking about the rights and wrongs, ins and outs, of immigration WW it is a fact we cannot say 'no' to anyone from inside the EU.

Pippa it's about even at roughly 185,000 from outside the EU and inside.

Anya Tue 14-Jun-16 13:12:09

WW I don't mean I'm NOT willing to talk about those issues....I just meant that that is not the point of this thread.

Gracesgran Tue 14-Jun-16 13:16:04

Anya It was me that said, when you asked why no one had answered your question, that "maybe no one wanted to talk to you - it happensgrin"

What you had not explained was your question was actually a new thread. I was being flippant because I could not see the question. Perhaps, if you make yourself clearer and do not take one question to another thread I wouldn't need to be flippant as I could give you a proper answer.

Too late to give a lengthy answer now as I have to go out but will pick up later suffice it to say that I do not agree that:

"... if we remain, we will continue to have no control over numbers of immigrants from the EU, entering the country."

is a fact. I would add that I do not agree that the opposite would be true either, that:

If we leave we will have control over numbers of immigrants from the EU, entering the country.

If you are backing those two when you vote you could be very disappointed.

Pippa as I said I must go out, but more came from outside the EU then from the EU. The overall numbers are unlikely to go down whether we stay or leave.

Luckygirl - no one is lying unless they purport what they say about the future to be a facts; they are not. They are just theory, hypothesis, thesis, argument, premise whatever you would like to call them. Some are based on more knowledge than others however and you decide which you believe to be more likely.

petra Tue 14-Jun-16 13:27:18

Pippa000 The truth is: nobody knows. There has just been a programme on Radio 4 where they explained where the figures come from. All the could tell 'us' was: the figures given for people entering have no corilation with the amount of NI numbers being given out. Not every person coming into the uk is counted, it's roughly 1in 10 who are questioned at entry ports.

Anya Tue 14-Jun-16 13:28:07

Yes, I know it was you GG hmm .... why did you think I didn't know this? confused

As a point of interest I did not add that 'if we are leaving we will have control.....' etc.

Talk about putting words into my mouth .... that seems to be the way Remainers work.

Path-et-ic and dishonest.

I'm glad at least that have had the balls guts to admit that my OP if a fact wink

whitewave Tue 14-Jun-16 13:28:37

Yes that is correct we cannot say no to free movement. We never have been able to.

thatbags Tue 14-Jun-16 13:30:26

I've only got as far as the second post in my perusal of this thread. I laughed when I read it and thought "Oh, good!" Remember that time when Remainers were asked not to talk to us? wink

It won't last grin

Ana Tue 14-Jun-16 13:33:46

If you read GG's post again, Anya, I think you'll see that she does not agree with the statement in your OP.
(It's badly worded, but that's what she actually says)

felice Tue 14-Jun-16 13:37:10

All this fuss about immigration, how will the UK cope if even a small proportion of the 2.2 million Brits living and working in mainland Europe return to the UK.
Yes it may happen, I am other friends have been making our own enquiries in EU countries.
I have asked leave campaigners what will happen, jobs, schools homes etc and never get a reply??????
These are mainly white collar workers and will expect a decent standard of living if they have to return, after all most of them do not even get the chance to vote on their own futures.

rosesarered Tue 14-Jun-16 13:39:36

Quite right Anya it is an undisputable fact that staying in the EU means we have to accept unlimited numbers of people from other EU countries.
Freedom of movement has always been in place, but since the poorer countries have joined, and countries like Greece have little employment, then of course they make a beeline for our shores, to seek work.The problem with this kind of immigration ( and we do need a lot) is that we have no say as a country as to whether we need them and their skills/no skills at all.We cannot accept people from elsewhere by seeking to get visas for them ( employers may want skill sets from Asia/Australia etc but cannot get them.)

rosesarered Tue 14-Jun-16 13:45:09

We will not be sending anyone from The EU currently here, home, and it will take about 2 years or more to untangle us from the EU, so any UK citizens working abroad will have the same safeguards.
However, the OP wants to deal only in facts, so the only fact is as she says.smile

felice Tue 14-Jun-16 13:46:59

Why do Brits think everyone is making a beeline for their shores, do you think other countries have no immigration problems.
Those in the 'Jungle' at Calais trying to get to the UK are the tiniest tip of the iceberg most mainland countries are coping with.

rosesarered Tue 14-Jun-16 13:47:52

Yes Petra I heard that on radio 4 too, makes you think!🤔