Can a referendum be valid if won on lies?

The Independent is on line; the I is still extant and contains much of the Indy's content. I have never knowingly bought the Torygraph!

Whitewave, have you heard any more about the legal side of the referendum?

I buy the i every day that I teach my grandson, because it's a good size for him to read. I mean the length of articles.
The sports pages are quite good, too, Tegan, but I do not know how they compare to the Telegraph.
My grandson has noticed that his great aunt and uncle buy the Telegraph, so it's better not to talk to them about politics, because they probably do not agree with him.

Apologies..it's the S.O. that buys the newspapers. I thought the Independent was totally online now. He doesn't buy it because he likes to read the sport section in the Telegraph. He's now in the doghouse over that and has cancelled it. The only paper I ever bought was The Observer and stopped doing so when it's price went up again and my pension meant a bit of cost cutting.

It's noticeable here that the number of I newspapers that Sainsbury stocks is increasing steadily . Unfortunately the pile of Daily Mails is still huge

I have never found it difficult to buy the "i" in a newsagent. Please keep asking for it.

The trouble with "I" is that it no longer has a headline grabbing newspaper in shops and on the high street. And, even before that we had to order it from our local newsagents as he didn't sell enough to order them in. I'm still astounded that one tabloid used a picture of the Queen on the front page pre referendum to further the leave cause.I agree daphnedill. I do need to move on (certainly need to emotionally). Still astounded that people have such a poor view of politicians that they feel that lying is acceptable.

ThatBags, re your post at 8.51- from Dominic Lawson (brother of Nigella no?) - is probably tragically right. Despite Farage having said beforehand that a 48/52 result would have to require a second referendum- the massive rise in racial attacks etc, shows clearly that the extreme right of UKIP, and groups like Britain First and the EDL - would go absolutely berserk and do everything they can to prove Enoch Powell right.

And it is blackmail- and it is dreadul and tragic- and such a huge mess and a total disaster. That we can agree with.

A study of newspaper front pages during the EU campaign showed that The Guardian was the most biased in favour of Remain and The Exoressed most biassed in favour of Leave. Theonly unbiassed newspaper was the "i" which is an excellent, very well balanced paper and terrific value for money.

That's what I've been saying on other threads, daphne.
Fortunately they did not get the sell-off of the Land Registry through last week.

dj,

No, I didn't . How does he work that one out?

@Tegan

I wouldn't say the Guardian was pro-Brexit, although some of its articles expressed reservations. Strangely enough, the Mail on Sunday, which has a different editor from the weekly DM, came out as pro-Remain.

I read that article from Carole Cadwalladr as regretting BREXIT, but trying to move on. Isn't that what Leavers keep telling Remainers to do?

I'm still angry about it all, but getting over the shock. I think that it's important that we're not so busy being indignant and outraged that we let a new more right-wing government get away with its own agenda. We need to keep an eye on what's happening in Parliament, because it's business as usual for them and they're voting on laws while we're all distracted by the referendum.

Exactly, daphne. The father who lives in France but was one of the leading voices for Brexit.
Did you know Dominic Lawson blamed the result of the referendum on the legalisation of same-sex marriage?

Nigel Lawson's son.

Tegan, I always look on that as a sign it has sold out!

Bags, how do you explain that that is exactly what Ukip would have done, and it was a Ukipper who set up the petition on the second referendum as it was thought they would lose.
Farage was the one to say with a 48 - 52% vote he would call for a second referendum.

Dominic Lawson? Who's he?

For the angry people, Dominic Lawson says this:

"If you wanted to convulse the country with rioting on a revolutionary scale, to cause a lethal rupture between the governing class and the governed and even to provide the conditions for the rise of 21st-century fascism across Europe, here’s what you do.

After a referendum in which an unprecedented number of voters took part, and in which well over a million more people voted for change than for the status quo on our membership of the EU, you declare that the decision cannot be allowed to stand, chiefly on the grounds that the people were too stupid to know what was good either for themselves or for the country."

Good article. I looked to see if the Guardian was on sale at the supermarket yet (as the S.O. is buying it from now on). But it was nowhere to be seen. So every newspaper, apart from the Mirror, was pro brexit.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/02/ebbw-vale-eu-vote-leave

All based on lies.

Agreed Maisie - the blooming cheek was about Merlot's comment, and repeating her earlier words ;)

Ahem, gj; I think it was merlotgran who objected to having Prof. Dougan rammed down her throat.

I'm not ramming anything, just making information available if people care to look at it.

I think that people are forgetting that as well as 'democracy' the 'rule of law' is fundamental to our constitution.Indeed, it is, I believe, held to be fundemantal to what we know as 'civilisation'. I'm quite happy to think that a lawyer who has spent his career studying his subject, and EU law in particular, is worth taking notice of.

I think that Prof. Dougan is pointing out that the two principles are not quite in accord in this situation.

Anyway, do 2 wrongs make a right?
I was on the march too btw. Very peaceful and some good speeches.

I think that extreme Nationalism, such as we are seeing, even if only in a small way so far, has very often been the catalyst for war. Just because we've had peace in Europe for 70 years it doesn't follow that we'll always have peace. Leaving the EU shortens the odds.

Can you point me to a reputable Remain statement that categorically states that there will be war in Europe? I'll happily accept that as an industrial scale lie, but not a statement that speaks only of increasing the probability.

Maizie- blooming cheek indeed. From FB the 48% group:

This keeps playing on my mind: how is it undemocratic to ignore the results of the flawed referendum, yet democratic to knowingly lie on an industrial scale to the same electorate? What does this teach our children? Am I the only one grappling with this logic?

Nobody is ramming anything or anyone down your throat ThatB- but he explains THE FACTS in a very calm and matter of fact way- from his decades of experience studying EU Law- so why not listen to his explanations. What can you lose by listening? Apart from factual knowledge? Facts are never dangerous- they don't bite. And even facts can be ignored or refuted- if you choose.

I'm blowed if I'm going to have Michael Dougan rammed down my throat again. How many threads has he popped up on, pre and post referendum?

Somebody take him off to Soop's Kitchen for a cup of tea and a flapjack.......Please?

I wonder how many of those who go on about Sovereingty and Democracy bothered to vote in the European elections and elect their MEP?

A considerable number of them don't even bother to vote in our own General Elections; even fewer bother in Local elections.