A new Centre party?

The strange thing is, I could see Cameron sounding it out now behind the barricades.
He was always someone to hedge his bets.
Too many cliches there, but you know what I mean.
His only other job was PR, after all, usually PR for himself.

That's what the article said, Anniebach. I disagreed with it.

The lib Dems lost support when Clegg went back on the university fees promise which they had campaigned on and won support of students

I don't think Cameron is man enough to do it dd. His political judgement has been shown to be wanting over and over again. I, for one, would never vote for a party led by a man whose lack of judgement and foresight has plunged this country into political and economic chaos.

I find 'centrist' Labour very hard to stomach, too. I didn't notice any vigorous defence of Labour's handling of the 2008 financial crisis in the last election, or hear any coherent 'non-austerity' policy being proposed.

I feel very sorry for the Lib-Dems as they were clearly the scapegoats for the failings of the Coalition government but I think it will take years to rehabilitate them.

I very much like Wilma's and dd's manifestos! The problem is finding a party that fits them.

Well whatever finally happens I do think that both the main political parties and to a lesser e xtent the Libs are really coalitions anyway.

It may be that both parties need to re-examine their basic philosophy to see if first it fits with its members and second if it fits with the voting population. I think the answer to a large extent in both cases is no. Perhaps the current turmoil will result in new political parties that fit better with people's needs, although I won't hold my breath as I see no passion or commitment from anyone. I only see career politicians with commitment only to the extent it furthers their career.

So Benn should leave the party?

The link does not talk about Corbyn joining the DCP, but the right wing labour members helping to set it up, like Benn and Hunt.

How could labour and Tories form a coalition party? Corbyn even refused to take part in any tv debates involving members of others parties

Hmmm! That actually sounds quite a good idea. Whether Cameron is man enough to do it, I don't know.

I often think about one of the most influential governments of the last 100 years - Churchill's wartime coalition. While the country was busy fighting a war, the basis of the modern welfare state was being written. Attlee was Labour; Beveridge was Liberal and Rab Butler (who introduced FREE grammar schools and raised the school leaving age) was Conservative.

voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/07/02/mcdonnell-has-claimed-osbornes-decision-to-drop-surplus-target-as-a-labour-victory/

John McDonnell is taking the credit for Osborne's change of heart, but, as usual, nobody listens to him or Corbyn.

What about this for an idea?

theconversation.com/letter-to-david-cameron-split-your-party-and-start-a-new-one-to-save-britain-61893

PS. Osborne is a rubbish economist but a good strategist - he'll take the credit for anything which works.

I thought I'd already written too much, dj, so I didn't include him.

He should have scrapped his targets years ago.

Labour needs to hammer some positive messages home. The people who matter just don't seem to get it.

I really fear for the North East. Ukip has it in the cross hairs and Labour needs to offer a practical alternative to austerity and realistic challenge to what's happening.

Millions in being spent on the Northern Powerhouse project, for which Osborne is taking the credit. People need to get stuck in there and fight for what they want and need, rather than protesting against the establishment. JMHO

Include Osborne in that, daphne.
I see he has done what Corbyn suggested Cameron ask him to do in Wednesday's PMQs and scrap the budget surplus plan for 2020.
I have a feeling he will not be chancellor then anyway.

I think we're going to see a major re-alignment of parties and party loyalties over the next few years. I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't know how it will work out. There is a chasm in the centre ground. I suspect most people want the same things - somewhere reasonable to live, fair rewards for working, feeling safe when they walk around, schools and a health service fit for purpose, etc.

Like you, I feel a mixed economy works best. Markets usually find the right level, but when they fail (as they are in housing) the government must step in to rebalance the situation. I believe it's obscene that individuals are making vast profits from health and education, which should be a basic right in a first world economy. I would, for example, love to see a national audit of education spending and see how much is being spent on consultancy, outsourcing of functions such as payroll and HR, CEO's salaries. This is all money which could pay for smaller classes and teaching equipment.

I would also like to know how much in total is being spent on G4S, Serco, Capita and the various work programme providers and to compare what they provide with 10 or 15 years ago. I don't believe for one moment that the mantra 'private is best' is true.

I feel that we're trapped between two ideologies. Personally, I prefer pragmatic solutions. If there's a problem, it needs sorting. Societies need to provide red lines, but if the solution involves bringing in private providers or adapting public services and/or the law, that's fine. I would like to see every citizen having a basic understanding of macro economics, so that they understand that a national budget is not like a household one.

Your last point is an important on daphnedill. There has to be a way forward that creates the right balance between policies on private and public sectors and neither the snuggling up to commerce, nor the left-wing ideology of the past will work. The challenge for the Labour Party is to negotiate a way forward that can work successfully with the private sector (which ultimately pays the bills for everything) while protecting public services, the NHS, a welfare safety net and the rights of workers. No small ask. But it is no use being entranced by the wonder of the business world. I have seen many examples over the years of politicians deluding themselves that a manager or private sponsor from the private sector will put things right in the public sector. Usually this proves to be a disappointment. But that does not mean there is nothing that the public sector can learn from the private sector.

@ Wilma

I'm with you on the barricades on that one, Wilma. I explained a few weeks ago way I voted Labour in the election. One way or other I've really been through the mill over the last five years and I discovered a whole new world of benefits, work programmes and being looked down on. I'm not 'hard left'. I don't believe in bringing down the capitalist state and I don't resent 'elites' if they've earned their money and/or position themselves and pay their contribution (taxes) to society. I don't have a problem with a market economy and believe the UK is rich enough to provide safety nets for people, whether on a permanent basis (because they are disabled) or a temporary basis (because they are ill or unemployed, etc). I'm a passionate believer in building council houses and redistributing wealth from the South to the North and regions. I believe schools should provide a dceent start in life for everybody, including those who aren't naturally gifted.

If any party can deliver on the above, they've got my vote. I really don't care about 'isms' and divisions in parties. My problem with Corbyn and Momentum is that their battle cries don't seem to translate into practical policies.

He's not made many headlines yet dj, but I can't believe he's standing for the leadership. He not only voted against same sex marriage, but started his career as an intern for Christian Action Research and Education (CARE), a charity which promotes the idea that people who are gay or bisexual can be 'cured'. As an MP he has employed interns from that same organisation, but unlike other MPs who have distanced themselves from CARE, Crabb has never spoken publicly about CARE and there's no mention of it on his website. I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw him.

And which are being perpetuated by Stephen Crabb, Wilma.

Great post Wilma

The problem with the Tory Party making people believe it represents hard working families, is that it continues to perpetuate the belief you are worth less if you are not hard working. It's a twist on one of the basic principles of Conservative beliefs - help people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. The trouble is, for many reasons not everyone can be hardworking and so a division is created.

Also, what people conveniently forget is that millions of hard working families are on tax credits and Child Benefit and both are part of the Welfare State. But when the Welfare State is mentioned, many people think of claimants on benefit and not themselves on tax credits or Child Benefit. Both are managed by the tax office, not the DWP, so it's easy to think of them as different from benefits. So the illusion is created that the vast majority of money that makes up the Welfare State budget is paid to those on benefit. Now a further division has evolved, further marginalising those less fortunate.

When times get hard, this belief gets stronger and results in a lost of empathy for the less fortunate. The truth is, at the end of the day tax credits are just a glorified enhancement of the old Family Income Supplement (FIS), paid to low paid working families (many worked for the government!). The irony is tax credits were introduced by the Labour Party.

To answer dd's question, what I want the Labour Party to do is to work hard to break down the us and them divisions between the working class. To fight the unspoken belief nurtured by Margaret Thatcher that it's not my problem to care about those less fortunate than me, and start making people realise that having a social conscience is a positive attribute in our society. To develop policies that actually really do enable us to all be in this together, to quote another Tory fallacy.

How is this done? I have no idea, but it could start by dispelling some of the myths and hammering home some facts about how people's incomes are made up and that wages are propped up by tax credits. For example, take a look at how the Benefits and Tax Credits budget is made up right now and then consider who in our society has been the hardest hit by the government's austerity measures and the changes to benefits introduced by IDS.

Neither party would get elected if millions of ordinary people in ordinary jobs in ordinary places did not vote for them.

It would be a good idea if they both remembered this. The referendum took place because Cameron called it to placate right-wing Conservatives and look what damage that is likely to do to the economy.Already there is serious talk of interest rates being cut, more borrowing and probably even more welfare cuts. The current internecine strife in the labour party is alienating every voter who isn't already committed to the party

...you become a 'non person'.

And of course once you lose your job....

I don't believe a word of it either. She also wants to abolish the UK's involvement with the ECHR, cut police numbers and increase surveillance.

Unfortunately, I think she's the best of a bad bunch.

Thatcher knew that appealing to 'hard-working families' was the key to success and Blair took over that mantle.

I believe what we now have are many hard-working families, who aren't seeing a reward and are being encouraged to find scapegoats (benefit scroungers, immigrants, teenage mothers, the obese, you name it...) other than the politicians who promised them just rewards and had their own agenda all the time.