Who said immigrants have to go back?

With results that are notorious - to those of us outside the regimes who are able to see them as the tyrannies of megalomaniacs that they are. We should be ecstatic that we have the freedom to vote for policies that could prove didastrous, if we want to.

We should also embrace the other side of the coin of that right to influence the direction in which our country is going - the responsibility to find out the consequences of the policies we are thinking of voting for before giving our push in one direction or other.

Remember Hitler voted in by democratic ( though built on lies etc) vote. Not sure if I would be ecstatic about living in Germany in 1933 since it was so wonderful that many people had voted for something disastrous.

To get the result you want, you have to take the masses with you, i.e., people who don't read the Guardian, those without degrees, without wealth either physical or mental. These people as we now know do exist in this world, along with intellectuals and experts. You ignore these folk at your peril, as given the chance they'll poke you in the eye. To do this imo you have to encourage, not bully, persuade not threaten, give people hope, not Armageddon, understanding not arrogance. Make people feel that what you are saying is going to be good for them, will make their lives better, give hope, not tell them that they're fool's and morons unless they do as they're told by superior old you. People don't react well to being dismissed and browbeaten by their so called intellectual betters. People need to be talked, and listened to about their fears and phobias, however dreadful they may be, not just dismissed as abhorrent, or moronic, or disgusting. Everyone should feel part of the team, not just the superior telling the inferior how to vote, how to think, and to do as they're told.

Some GNers should read Alexis de Tocqueville, a classical liberal nineteenth century free thinker.

Tocqueville was an advocate of democracy and wrote a book called 'Democracy in America'.

He argued that democracy isn't just a case of yes/no, without inbuilt protection for minorities. He also argued that democracy was in danger of regression to a mean, because it didn't allow highly talented and skilled individuals to flourish. He was fearful of a victory by the least able masses over individuals with the ability to lead. He also argued that people should be fully aware of what they were voting for. (There's more to his theories than that, but I'll leave anybody interested to Google.)

There's more to the democratic process than deciding between two alternatives.

Hear, hear! niggly.

I wonder why regression to the mean is regarded as 'dangerous'. Isn't it just normal?

I also wonder about the argument that says a democracy doesn't allow highly talented and skilled individuals to flourish. Shouldn't a fair society help/allow less talented and less skilled individuals to flourish too?

I guess I'll have to add the book to my reading list.

Daphnedil

"He was fearful of a victory by the least able masses over individuals of the ability to lead"

Some people just simply 'read' between the lines.

No amount of educated thought, philosophy , narcasissim or brow beating will cut it with those who are the backbone of the country who are too busy trying to keep a roof over their head.

The haves and have nots, the belittler and the belittled, worst ones of all, the 'patronising and the patronised' will view the world in very different ways and they 'read' the world through their vision of what is happening all around them and that will be totally relevant to the 'era' they are living in.

I wonder what his politics would be 150 years after his death, champagne socialist, wicked Tory, communist?

Well said nigglynelly.

Well said Nellie
POGS "The haves and have nots etc" how true.

Does anyone here live near Warrington? The Warrington Guardian accepted and published an advert from a Christian Group re the Good Samaritan - asking for all Muslims to be helped in their own country and not here, stating that the good Samaritan never too the Jew home.

Really shocking and many complaints being written now to the paper for publishing and taking the money. Have you heard about this or seen it?

Not surprised. My deeply religious friend has the same views. When I asked her about her views she replied very simply: They are wrong.

Granjura

I would like to see the advert in full to establish the 'context' of it's meaning.

I am not saying there is no issue maybe behind the words you choose to proffer up as what I percieve you to be eluding to some sort of racisism, nasty comment. It could well be that is the case but 'context' is time and time again misused on Gransnet.

Can you put the advert on GN, I have tried to find it.

No POGS I wasn't able to copy. but racist it surely was. Hopefully someone else here will be able to copy it.

Not sure if it has copied correctly, from the Warrington Guardian FB page

Esstta Turquoise Eyebrows Hayes Great to hear!
Sorry to say I heard today that this advert is in the Guardian...sadly, it flies in the face of cultural diversity and compassion
Esstta Turquoise Eyebrows Hayes's photo.

Heard a young British born Asian girl on the radio telling how she was verbally abused by an old white gentleman last week and being told " I'm voting to get rid of people like you" . She was practically in tears. Sad thing is, there were several stories like this on this 2 hour programme.

No-one from Warrington area? I will report back when I know more- but I am amazed the paper accepted the 'advert' - and would really like to know what kind of Christian group would put this together and pay good money for it ???

Where did you get your original I formation from Granjura?