Could Labour 'split'. Tom Watson calls off talks.

Tegan, I so understand how you feel. Try to hold onto the hope that good will prevail above one persons desperate attempts to try hold onto a role he is not capable of fufulling

Not entirely lonely Tegan, there are others of us there as well! I don't see many politicians who could lead us out of obscurity though.
When Tony Blair became PM in 1997, I went to the women's conference in Bournemouth just after the election and I'm not ashamed to admit that I was in tears of joy when he appeared on stage and made a speech. Mo Mowlam was there as well, so approachable and caring. But it all slowly became more of the same.
I can't vote for an apologist for a pharmaceutical company who says he has a 'normal' family, or someone whose voting record is suspect to say the least. Everyone says Corbyn is not a leader and I can see that, but at least everyone who knows him says he is honest - but that's not vote-winning. Do I sound confused?

The party comes first before the ego of a few people. It does not come before the needs of the people . It fights for the needs of the people not for an individual

roses.I'm a lifelong Labour voter who can't vote for Corbyn.Although I look on myself these days as more of a middle of the road LibDem voter I have never not voted Labour. Our local Labour party always had close links with the local LibDems. My heart will always be with the Labour Party and what's going on now is upsetting me greatly. My simplistic view of politics being that the Conservatives make the wealthy wealthier thereby dragging the poor up with them, whereas the Labour Party believes in giving each and every member of society a chance to make the most of their abilities and that, to me, starts with health, education and housing.And the right of everyone to a secure job. Unlike my partner I don't read up a lot on politics and I'm amazed at the depth of knowledge shown by the people on this forum, but I tend to go with my gut instinct and my heart. Having felt for the past few weeks that I'm in a different country to half of the population I [and my family] now feel cut off from the very people whose beliefs I share. And I don't know who or what to believe any more. It's quite a lonely place, and I'm actually quite tearful about it.

Badenkate Tue 19-Jul-16 10:51:43
Anya Tue 19-Jul-16 11:18:41
Agree with both of you. It is very worrying what will fill the potential vacuum.

Tegan Tue 19-Jul-16 11:22:33
But maybe the country and the world are totally different now to the world where the Labour Party came from and far left policies are no longer the way to go?

I wonder just what we do want now but I have thought for many years - since the SDP in fact - that the Labour did not fit the changes in how the population see themselves although they many still wanted socialism albeit a more democratic socialism. Anything could happen now but, if the LP rises from the ashes I do not think they will be electable. 'The party' may come first with some of its members but what any party is trying to achieve probably comes first with the majority of voters.

We have a problem with the centralisation of teaching in our family too but tend to believe both Conservative and Labour have done their bit with this.

The voting for the new NEC takes place in August , the far left are standing , I received a mail yesterday from a centre MP who has started campaigning for candidates who are not extreme left. There are quite a few far left in the NEC now, come September it will be far left controlled ,

I disagree the other contenders in the leadership election did not speak out on labour values, the press were so excited at a Trotsky standing the others got little coverage , also they put forward their own plans , Corbyn had momentum on the internet working like beavers. I was undecided who to vote for, at first it was Andy or Yvette for me , then after much thought I decided on Corbyn but I realise now I was conned . I was unaware of momentum too. I cannot change my vote but I can canvas and vote for Angela or Owen.

Trisher, i am shocked you compared a woman who spoke out about why she resigned with a school child. A case of - if you cannot praise Corbyn remain silent ?

We have to do all we can to save the party from being run by Trotskyists , well those who fear a Trotsky party

I don't really think we need to wait 'for only time will tell'...IMHO the average Labour voter does NOT want a Trot style Party.
If we could cherry pick ideas and policies from all the Parties that would be great (but we can't) even Corbyn may have one or two tucked up his sleeve.
Owen Smith is very left wing, so would appeal to quite a few, but as another poster says upthread, Corbyn will now have the sympathy vote also the rebel vote, so it's likely he would do well.
Is there anyone else on here, apart from annieb who votes Labour and thinks he should go, and somebody who can actually lead be put in place?

Yes, Anniebach, I agree that they want a Trotsky style party. Whether that is a vote winner with the voters only time will tell. Badenkate and Anya, like you I agree with much of what he alleges to stand for. If he wins again then he needs to pad out what exactly he means by anti austerity and how he intends to achieve it when in power. The honeymoon period in politics is a very short experience and sooner or later you have to lay out the wares for the electorate to pick over. If May calls a General Election, to capitalise on Labour's disarray, then it could be within a very short time. I can't recall whether the sitting MPs automatically go through as the candidates but, if not, a lot of very inexperienced candidates will be up against professionals.

But maybe the country and the world are totally different now to the world where the Labour Party came from and far left policies are no longer the way to go? How would everyone feel if the Iraq war had never happened; would the Blairites be as despised as they are now? What other policies were in place at that time that were for the good of the country? I know my daughter says that schools and teaching were much better then. I don't think we can go back and renationalise everything [even though I wish very much that we could]. What I'm trying to say [badly] is what does Corbyn stand for; what does he want for the country and how viable is it? I do feel that I, and a lot of other people don't know what he stands for .My daughter says she can no longer vote Labour; we have always been a Labour family and want to continue to be so but we no longer know what to think or what to believe.

Yes, that's the problem, I too agree with much of what Corbyn says.

My problem is that I agree with much of what Corbyn says. I also see that he does not act as a leader. However I don't see anyone else in the PLP who appears to support the values that I, and many other Labour members, believe in. All I can see are MPs who vote to bomb Syria, who abstain on social issues... So where is the new leader coming from? I know the argument that you have to achieve power before you can make changes, but the best I can see is a Torylight abomination which I could not support.

Wish they would get a move on , so far Benn and Harman are supporting Angela

Devorgilla, it was his turn to stand in a leadership contest for the far right. McDonald tried in 2010 but failed to gather enough support so he then put Diane Abbot forward and did get enough votes to stand, she was first out though. This time MacDonalds close friend Corbyn did the far left attempt but sadly for him and the party he won.

MacDonald is the far lefts answer to Mandelson, only difference , Mandelson wanted success for labour , McDonald wants to destroy it and replace it with a Trotsky party

I don't think you can blame Corbyn's support entirely on those enraged by the Iraq war, he offered to many an alternative to Tory austerity which the rest of the party had steadily failed to contest. I think the reason he is still supported by the NE is because they still see him as the champion of the poor and underprivileged. I don't see that either Eagle or Smith will appeal to these people.

JC's main problem is that he was never a party animal. He was a political 'loner' who operated very well from the back benches where he could take the high moral ground on all sorts of issues. He was good at it too. He allowed himself to be propelled into the limelight by being the 'token left's' candidate for a leadership election they never expected to win. It was 'his turn' to put his head above the parapet. Thanks to the young being very computer and social media literate and the many being enraged by the Iraq war he was the victor. Having accepted the mantle of leadership he then should have led by accepting the party line on issues agreed at the Conference until, by superior argument, he was able to persuade the whole PLP to adopt his stance. If he wins again I cannot see him doing this so his only way forward is to go for mass deselection of the MPs who do not support him and to put in his own 'yes' people. Neither scenario is a good one for the party long term. Parties work best when there is a good mix of experience and differences in opinion with free debate within the party on controversial issues. The leader then needs to support the majority opinion. I do not fear a split as I think we will emerge all the stronger from this public brawling.

Thinking of Corbyns appearance before the select committee to be questioned on racism - the very first labour leader to be called ever- I am unsure what he meant when asked about calling Hamas - friends

He replied - with hindsight it was wrong .

Did he mean he only learned of their barbarism after he called them friends or did he mean if he had known it would have been in the press
He wouldn't have said it or did he mean I didn't know at that time I would be leader of a party ? He is vague with answers isn't he, were perhaps more evasive than vague

Yes Anya, this is one of my fears ,UKIP are working hard in the poorest areas of Wales ,you at so right, If May called a snap election she would certaintly increase her majority .

All Labour Party can hope for now is Corbyn replaced and a leader who will bring back unity to the party and start winning back labour supporters and also do as Kinnock did during the wilderness years and weaken the grip of the extreme left

Anniebach should the scenario you outline actually happen, and well it might, then Labour in England (and Wales?) will suffer the same fate as it did in Scotland at the next election. This would leave to political vacuum to be taken up by either UKIP or another emerging party.

However, if I was Theresa May and saw Labour in total disarray they I'd call a snap general election and increase my majority.

Things are looking bleak I agree.

Eleothan, would like your views on the following, do you really believe Cameron did more harm to people than Hamas?

Well, who will it be Angela or Owen? More canvassing for me, lost count of how many elections in just over a year

I read Thangman Debonnaire's account as well, and what it reminded me of was the accounts I used to get when the girls in my class had fallen out. That is-"this happened, then that happened, then all the other girls said so and so was not talking to them, so I said I wasn't talking to her, and so we aren't friends with her anymore". It was understandable in children, in women in public life it is pathetic.

I will have to mail so many MP's today to apologise for misjudging their reasons for not working with Corbyn , dare not use iPad ,

True he is seen by many as an honourable man, I thought he was, how wrong was I .

He has a plan, he will win the leadership election - momentum are beavering away-
Once elected the next move of the plot is to have the labour MP's who he wants shot of deselected and then replaced with hard left. This was said by one of his team - not the word plot though

I am not sure the MPs you refer to have any chance of winning an election Iam after the shenanigans going on from them in an attempt to stop Corbyn and the fact that they have no one of stature to lead them. As you say, and particularly after these very MPs have done their worst, Corbyn is probably unelectable too so where do those with left of center views put their cross in the future? Not next to Labour I would think; I think we are watching their implosion.