Could Labour 'split'. Tom Watson calls off talks.

No problem Grscesgran , your opinions on who you support and why is your choice and I respect this, I do not respect you posting your opinions on other posters , unlike you

I agree with both your last posts whitewave and I know that isn't what you want to hear Annie. I don't like the idea of you being so distressed and I don't think my thoughts and feelings are going to help. This is a very tumultuous time and all each of us can do is follow what we believe to be right.

Yes white wave, I share your sentiments. A centre left party may be the result of this turbulent times.

Yes I know annie honestly I could bang heads together. Their purile behaviour is driving me insane. I have supported Labour the whole of my life, but at the moment a coalition of the left looks extremely attractive.

I had hoped that too whitewave but they didn't and we cannot change the past. I have had many sleepless hours over this. We need a United Labour party but are heading for a party splitting into two. By the way there are left wing members on the NEC, you and I voted for them

I am interested to have concrete evidence of of all the intimidation etc. I simply don't believe it exists. If the right of the LP want to challenge JC then they should find a credible and popular candidate, neither of which they have done to date. The tactics seem underhand and unpleasant. This was inevitable given the rights reaction at the time of JCs election. I had hoped they would give him a bit longer, and worked with him in opposing the Tories.

Gracesgran, I condemned the MP's who backed off as soon as Corbyn was elected, I even emailed them and said they had betrayed us. I cannot condemn the shadow cabinet who resigned after Brexit . Yes I do believe the party is of more importance than one person. If we cannot win an election how can we help the vulnerable ?

I find all this so distressing Gracesgran, we have to stop going on about the Iraq war - and yes I marched in anti war protests- it happened, it was wrong, it cannot be undone . If we dismiss every MP who voted for it there are very few left .

The only way we can stop the benefit cuts, house the homeless , protect the NHS etc is by winning an election.

Instead of reaching for the stars, you seem to reach for the floor.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Lazigirl, I voted and campaigned for Corbyn for the same reasons as you. But to put our policies into force we have to win an election, to do this we have to reach out further than left wing supporters. With the loss of Scotland and the loss of labour constituencies when the government axe 40 before the next election we have one hell of a battle . The party needs a leader who can unite not divide . Sympathy alone doesn't help the vulnerable , Government does . South Wales has always been strong labour, I fear UKIP there and in the North of England, UKIP have the poorest parts of the country in their sights.

I hope only one will oppose Corbyn, if two then all hope is lost . It seems Smith may get the support of the majority MP's, if so I hope Angela will stand down . No idea how Smith will fair, the far left will be against him . My concern is the party does not split

My opinion of Corbyn, not agreed with by the majority of Labour supporters here - yes he is bringing in the young but his youth rallies are putting centre voters off .

My knowledge of smith is dim even though his constituency is only about twenty five miles from me.

It's a mess, we on this forum are divided, the party is divided , the Tories are thrilled

I'm afraid I am not interested in the internecine wars within the LP Annie. I am interested those who believe we need someone to represent the views Jeremy Corbyn put forward a year ago and in how they can achieve that.

I do appreciate you believe in The Labour Party above all but each person has a different view of what that is. It seems to me that those who did not even give JC a chance in his very first days did not believe in The Labour Party or rather only did so when it was their version of the LP. I think this may be the death of the party and will await what the upheaval of that brings about.

So Devorgilla what you are saying is that people who are hard up and scraped together £3, in the hope of having a political party with a leader who would represent them, and recognise their pain, are not entitled to be members of that party, or to have a say in the leadership because they haven't enough money to complete membership, or cough up £25. I always thought Labour was meant to represent the poor and underprivileged obviously I was wrong.

A link for you, Lazigirl. You might find it interesting, particularly all the comments.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/07/18/if-you-want-a-saint-dont-look-for-a-politician/

Oh dear. This is difficult for me. I don't have a vote as a new joiner but I do have a union vote, and I don't know what I shall do. I supported Corbyn because I liked his honesty and his socialist principles which I believe in, of equality, fairness, renationalisation and also a pacifist. He was a refreshing change as a leader as IMO the LP were weak in opposition, indistinguishable from the Tories and ineffectively challenging the cuts affecting the poorest during the coalition government. I expected the media to attempt to demolish his character, which they have done from the outset, but now seasoned LP members are doing the same. He apparently does not have the leadership qualities or "charisma" required and won't win a general election. Trouble is I don't see A Eagle being the inspirational leader required, and know nothing about O Smith. Surely as both are standing against JC they are just as divisive as he is, and how can the PLP be excused the dreadful timing in starting this leadership debate immediately after Brexit when of all times they needed to be strong? There is surely similar division in the Tory party, but they have held it together brilliantly and managed to regroup. I respect other posters on here who know the inner workings of Labour better than me so perhaps you can give me some advice about how to make sense of it all.

It had valid points Gracesgran , discussing those would be interesting . Not everything is about Corbyn.

Mmm. Well I started to read it and read quite a bit but it seemed like an anti-Corbyn rant so I gave up. I am sure there is interesting content but the 'mood' of the post - whatever the mood of the poster - stopped me reading it.

Gracesgran - It depends what you are angry about and if it is a positive or negative anger. I got angry about apartheid in the '60s, among other things. People got angry about the Iraq war. If my Party is being infiltrated by people who subvert the democratic process for their own ends I believe I have a right to be angry to restore democracy. For me democracy is a positive. And I prefer to vote for a Party where the members get angry about injustice because they are more likely to be listened to and to change things than those who passively accept.

Grscesgran, di you disagree with the points made by Devorgilla , much better to discuss the posts not opinions of moods of posters yes?

Your opinion, Devorgilla doesn't read as very 'humble' but rather very angry; maybe you are. Do I want to vote for a party full of angry people?

Well said Devorgilla. As a member of the NEC Corbyn should have remained until all business was finished,

Yes, for some, this will be TLTR. That is your choice.
I think we need to clarify the role of the NEC. It is the rule-making arm of the Party and has been for years. It has a duty to ensure elections of any nature in the Party are run fairly and democratically for all members eligible to vote. It is made up of all shades of political opinion in the Party. You can look up its composition on the net. JC has a vote at it. He was asked to leave while they took the vote to decide whether there should be a secret ballot. That is normal as he was the one person with a very vested interest in the result. The discussions re the secret ballot were heated. A secret ballot was voted for. JC was readmitted so that he too could vote. A triumphant JC then left the meeting of his OWN FREE WILL to address his adoring crowd outside and from there went on to HQ where the champagne was opened. The rest of the business of the NEC, according to the agenda, went on to conclusion without him as he had absented himself. That is when they set the timetable and conditions for eligibility. No-one has been disenfranchised IMO. We had a leadership election last year when hundreds signed up on the £3 ticket to vote for JC but even that contest had a cut off date both for long standing members and the newly arrived. The £3 ticket was always on the understanding that they, if committed to Labour, would go on to be full and active members. Many did not and are now griping that they have to pay £25 to vote within a 48 hour timetable. They should, IMHO, have followed through last year. I do not want my leader elected by the 'here today, gone tomorrow' brigade.
Other members of this site, if Labour and eligible, should like me have got the two emails from Iain McNicol laying out the timetable, criteria and mood in which the contest was to be debated and what meetings can be held and under what criteria. How can a meeting in a pub be democratic? For a start the entire branch/constituency membership has to be informed that a meeting is taking place and they all have a right to vote. It has to be held privately as much of the matter of the meeting is confidential and people have a right to voice an opinion without it being broadcast. You also have a duty as officers to ensure that everyone voting is a bona fide member and eligible to vote. Difficult, in an open forum like a pub. A bit Munich Bier Keller to me. If for example all of the 6000 members of Brighton and Hove turned up at a pub then that is a health and safety issue and possibly a risk to public safety. The publican may be delighted at the extra money pouring into the tills but less happy about ordinary punters being subjected to a political meeting. The Police would need to be informed for that many people being present. At least one of the officers elected in Brighton had stood AGAINST Labour recently. What's that about? That is one of the reasons why the NEC annulled the election as sufficient checks had not been made. I am interested to know who filmed Brighton? Did they have the permission of everyone there to do so? Intrusion of privacy for me. Where can we view this whole meeting on the net? It is easy to edit video. Why were there London people at that meeting or in the nearby vicinity? There is a difference between heated debate and bullying and intimidation and you need to see the footage to decide for yourself.
Far from being the DESTROYERS of democracy, the NEC are the PROTECTORS of democracy.

This needs some thoight in my opinion. John McDonald attempted to stand for leader in 2007 but couldn't get enough support. He wanted to tried again in 2010 but thrn handed over to Diane Abbot, third time lucky to be second in command ?

Yes
Gracesgran, in your opinion . I made w decision to vote and campaign for Corbyn,did I try to show the facts fitted? No way, I did so because I believed it was the right choice after giving it much thought. Same applies to my withdrawing my support for him , after much thought .

I doubt an MP of only a year is geared up to become leader of any party.

We were talking about black and white views on another thread Annie and that is how I am hearing what you are saying. You have made a decision and seems - just my opinion of course - you are trying to show that the facts fit. You are totally entitled to your view but there seems - to me - to have been machinations all round.

I certainly heard it said that during the seven hour meeting the vote which affected who could vote in the leadership election was taken while Corbyn was out of the room. I have no idea if that is true or not but it is as easy to believe as some of the other rumours and the vote has produced a really weird and again, just my opinion, seemingly undemocratic and perverse voting rules.

I have also heard today rumours of the five biggest Labour donors being contacted about supporting a party led by Stephen Kinnock should Jeremy Corbyn win.

Iam's comment How can it be right to stop party members meeting to discuss the situation. It feels a bit like the Stasi to be honest. What a mess. rings true for me. It is, indeed, a mess.

Then they should fight back, they have a right to