Wolf whistling - a hate crime ??

Actually I think women who need a wolf-whistle as some sort of acknowledgement of their desirability must have incredibly low self confidence and in that respect I feel sorry for them. Most young women today don't need that sort of attention. As for the remarks about high heels and women's behaviour well it's just ridiculous. Please could someone tell me what they think a young woman who is subjected to the behaviour I have mentioned (and it isn't the same men, but different ones in different areas) should do. If it is classified as a crime at least she would have some protection. The idea of responding to the comments isn't on when there is a group of men and you are alone. Wolf whistling could be the beginning of such behaviour, not dealt with it could lead to more offensive things. An early warning would protect young women,

I had a wolf whistle once by a lorry driver when I was walking my yellow labrador and I was 32.
It made my day !! Never had one before and never had one since. LOL.

I'm no lawyer, but as far as I know, the difference between harrassment and a hate crime is that "A Hate Incident is any incident which the victim, or anyone else, thinks is based on someones prejudice towards them because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or because they are transgender." (according to the CPS)

I explained somewhere at the top of this thread what the police told me about harrassment. It takes a long time for something to be done and the police's first step will be to issue an unofficial warning. It also needs to happen at least twice. The logic is that people need to be told that their behaviour is causing somebody grief. If they're not told, they don't know.

However, if an incident is classified as a 'hate incident' it's fast-tracked and has to be recorded, in case it escalates. I guess the argument here is that the victim is female and was, therefore, being targeted because of her sexual orientation.

It appears that, in the end, it was treated as harrassment and the builders were warned. End of story!

@breeze

I hated wolf whistles and I didn't think they were a 'bit of fun'. Give me a man with a brain and sensitivity rather than one with caveman sexual instincts any day.

PS. Meant to say that harrassment is not regarded as a crime, unless it goes to court and a Harrassment Order is issued and, even then, only becomes a crime if the Harrassment Order is broken.

Straightforward wolf whistling is not a hate crime, or even harassment in my book.
Still get the odd one so glad I make the effort. A woman stopped me at the airport last week with her daughter, said they thought I was v stylish and the daughter (24) said she hoped she'd be the same when she was my age. I didn't tell her I was 69 and was dead chuffed. Back to healthy eating next week

@Kittens and knittings.

I am afraid you miss my point completely.

My posting was to emphasise that Nottingham City police already do not have the time and resources to deal with existing levels of crime in this city.
That they did not record my incident correctly was a very deliberate breach to cover over their late response time,due to lack of personnel.

They give out crime numbers over the telephone,again because there are not enough officers/resources.

It is therefore a nonsense to spend what time and resources they do have on wolf whistling and receiving unwanted texts.
As someone posted locally...will it be an offence to ask a girl out in the street?

How about campaigning to increase the number of police officers?

I don't think it's nonsense to report unwanted texts, which in some cases are revolting and threatening. This case wasn't just about wolf whistles.

If someone wolf whistled in my vicinity, I'd either ignore it or glance around looking for an attractive person who's getting the admiration! I think it's a bit sad that we've come so far from the innocent days of men appreciating a pretty girl and showing it without pressure. They never swarmed down their ladders or made lewd comments in the old days. Sadly, more and more people appear to be brought up with no manners or respect.

Also, with the march of militant feminism, women seem to want to demonstrate their equality by adopting all the worst kind of boorish behaviour exhibited by a minority of men. They dress in next to nothing, get hopelessly drunk, fall over and vomit in the gutter, use foul language, have one night stands with total strangers and cry rape when they wake up from a drunken stupor in some anonymous guy's bed.

Rant over ?

No, it's ridiculous to compare asking somebody out in a public place and unwanted wolf whistles/lewd comments. If the girl says that she doesn't want to go out and the person persists, it could well be seen as harrassment and rightly so.

Just because you or anybody else think that behaviour is non-threatening, doesn't mean that another person doesn't see it as harrassment.

But this girl wasn't dressed provocatively, wasn't drunk or using foul language - she was going to work.

In any case, no female who acts in an 'unladylike' way is 'asking for it'.

Well who would be a man eh. Reading through it seems some see wolf whistling as flattery and some as a floggable offence. I do resent the implication that only men without brains wolf whistle. I had a long relationship with a surveyor who wolf whistled me back in the day. And only women without brains enjoy it? There is a 'thick line' between wolf whistles or admiring glances and groping or harassment. Most women know the difference. So for those of you who have enjoyed a wolf whistle, and still enjoy it (I'm so envious!) good luck to you. If you don't. Ignore and carry on walking. Or maybe you never got them. Sour grapes!

Pedantry alert: the victim is female and was, therefore, being targeted because of her sexual orientation

No, because of her gender.

Sexual orientation is different from gender. Orientation is about whether one is heterosexual, homosexual, or a mixture of the two.

Just to confuse the issue further, there is now talk of gender uncertainty, but gender and sexual orientation still remain separate things.

That's the definition from the CPS. I'm assuming gender is part of sexual orientation for legal purposes. It doesn't use the word gender.

This was the builder's reaction:

A builder who wolf-whistled a young woman only to be accused of sexual harassment said today she is a 'silly little girl' who was 'lucky' to have received the attention.

Ian Merrett, 28, is astonished that Poppy Smart, 23, did not take it as a compliment, which he says has helped him 'snog loads of girls' in the past.

The builder and his colleagues whistled at her every day for a month as she passed their Worcester construction site.

Miss Smart, who compared the wolf-whistling to racial discrimination, eventually filmed them and asked West Mercia Police to investigate alleged sexual harassment.

Mr Merrett admits it was probably him whistling but called Miss Smart a 'silly little girl' who should never have gone to the police.

He said: 'I'm sure if she walks past again and she is lucky she will get wolf-whistled again. I have wolf-whistled so many girls and got so many birds and snogged so many girls off the back of that, and never had a complaint before. But I've got a girlfriend so need to be careful what I say'.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3060520/It-s-parcel-working-site-reputation-s-damaged-Builder-wolf-whistled-pretty-girl-says-s-lucky-happen-won-t-say-girlfriend.html

Quite frankly, I'd rather have another kind of 'man' to one who thinks a wolf whistle from somebody like him is a compliment.

@thatbags

Having looked at the definition, you're right. Interesting, because it means that behaviour towards somebody because of their gender isn't classified as a 'hate incident'.

Now I understand what this is all about. The question is whether misogyny or misandry should be classified as 'hate incidents', in the same way as comments about disability or race, etc would be.

It's strange in a way, because gender would be an issue in the work place, etc, where the Equality Act applies.

Some men are ignorant and arrogant. So, indeed, are some women. I would never suggest that any woman who is raped was asking for it but a lot of young women give the impression that sex is on their agenda. I'm not saying that women shouldn't dress in fashionable clothes or go out and have a good time but if you dress in a skirt so short that it's obvious you're not wearing underwear (seen it on TV) and your breasts are barely covered and you get so drunk you can't stay on your feet, you are putting yourself at risk.

So what about this. Some years ago, when feeling a bit miserable, I was wolf-whistled as I walked past a building site. Quite perked me up until I heard his mate say "cor mate, you ain't fussy are you" Back to gloom again, worse than the wolf-whistle, but amusing in retrospect.

Just wondering (in general, not about the Poppy case)... if a young woman didn't like being whistled at or having comments shouted at her from a building site, what if she were to get her smart phone out and switch on the videoing thingy for a few seconds and then walk on? Might it act as a deterrent? Especially if it happened to her more than once.

I'm thinking about ways of being less of a victim and more proactive in changing attitudes/behaviours one doesn't like. See Times article as well on this approach. Not everyone can come up with a quippish retort, but the filming or photographing might just get the message of stick it in your pipe...

What do people think?

Unfortunately Nottinghamshire has plenty more serious crime but she is a new Chief Constable and I guess wants to make her mark. Tackling the increase in knife crime would be better.
When I was young - a few weeks ago - I was flattered by wolf whistles. I worked in the textile trade where language was colourful to say the least. Comments could be crude but it was never meant to be taken seriously and you just told the speaker what he could do! I find it very sad that young women can't cope with this behaviour. I feel sorry for the young men who probably daren't speak.

@daphnedill

Campaigning for more police officers in Nottingham would be futile.
It was announced early last year that up to 70 PCSO,s would be shed (redundancy,retirement etc) and would not be replaced.

Despite over 20,000 people signing a petition offering to pay more council tax

Far from being unable to speak groups of young men do use language that would never have been even considered when you were young, including graphic descriptions of sexual acts. Could you have coped,with this not in the protected atmosphere of a work place but alone on a street?
As far as the wolf whistling goes I believe dealing with this would produce a result much like what happened in New York with the introduction of Zero tolerance. A fall in crime figures particularly sexual assaults.

thatbags my DSs girlfriend considered this but felt that her phone would probably be taken from her and she might be injured.

That would certainly be a consideration, trisher.

The problem, it would seem from a lot of posts on this thread, is that it cannot be assumed that wolf whistling or cat calling, even if unsought, is unwanted. Obviously, causing a woman to feel frightened is a different matter altogether.

I often felt scared when out alone when I was a young woman. I think young men often do too. They also get attacked in the street more often than women do. Not that that's any excuse, but it's not a one-sided problem, this thing about men frightening people.

DD was wolf whistled at when out walking with her dad...she stopped and took a bow! got a big cheer from the builders but DH was mortified.

She also blows kisses at any irate drivers who gesticulate rudely at her driving.

This child can't be mine...must have taken the wrong one home from hospital!

@thatbags

It obviously isn't unwanted by some women, but others don't like it. I didn't and I know my daughter doesn't. Young men need to be told that 'no' means 'no' and that includes wolf whistling.

The man who wolf whistled the girl in the article said, 'I'm sure if she walks past again and she is lucky she will get wolf-whistled again.' He hasn't learnt anything, even though he now knows his wolf whistles were unwanted.

If she's lucky? I don't think so! The arrogance of him to think that she would be flattered by an idiot like him. Hopefully she has more self-respect.

Some of the comments on that DM article are quite enlightening. Hardly any of them criticise the male, but there are plenty who make further misogynistic comments about her. The comments on Twitter were worse, calling her a 'slut', 'an ugly bitch' and 'lucky if she ever gets one up her' and the like.

I agree with you, thatbags, about attacks, but they would be dealt with as assault/ABH/GBH. It would appear that calling a female a slag or a slapper isn't a crime, whereas calling somebody a name related to religion, race, disability or sexual orientation is. That seems to be the issue and it's getting worse.