Social mobility and grammar schools

I wouldn't agree that going to a Sec. Mod. is always a bar to social mobility. Husband went to one, left at 15, and he and his group of friends all set up their own business and did very well. Hard work and initiative are what count.
When we met he was earning lots more than me, with my extra 6 years of education.
He has never wanted to move up the social ladder though, and neither did I.

My granddaughter goes to a grammar school. Her parents haven't got two halfpennies to rub together, ie they are not privileged. She got into the school by hard work and passing the entrance exam.

@NanaandGrampy

You and your siblings could all have received an appropriate education in a comprehensive school.

@petra

If I lived in Southend, I'd want my children to go to Westcliff or one of the grammar schools rather than the alternatives. However, if they weren't able enough to pass the 11+, I'd send them over the border into Essex, so they could go to a comprehensive.

The Lincolnshire grammar schools aren't actually that selective compared with some, but the alternative isn't good.

Lincolnshire grammar schools have places for approximately 25% of pupils. The kind of intelligence assessed in the 11+ can be plotted on a standard bell curve. Those towards the bottom of the 25% are much closer to the average than they are to ones at the top. With a margin of error, that means that some of them are no better than average, but might have been tutored to give them an advantage. Nevertheless, they will receive a completely different kind of education from their classmates of almost equal ability who were unlucky on the day.

That's the nub Anniebach, going to sec mod restricts life choices in so many ways. We warn the best for our children, not for 80per cent of them to have their opportunities for education and employment limited from age 11.

In our area (Lincolnshire) we still have the 11+...not sure about the rest of the county.
It has been known for parents to buy a house simply for the address to enable their child the opportunity to take the exam! How the hell they afford it I don't know...they don't live there they simply want the address.
I went to a grammar school but no further education...it was the minority who went to uni rather than the majority which seems the case today

All eleven year olds are assessed in one day of a year , so wrong , children who fail assume they are not academically gifted , they are told so the day they receive the results of the exam

This is a whole new world to me. Whoever knew there were lunchtime 11+ clubs?
That's beside the extra coaching. My DGS wants to take the test and his father wants him to go to Westcliff high school for boys which I now understand is a very good school. But DGS didn't want to go to 'club' so my DD has bought the tuition books. Fortunately his father is a maths genius and my DD loves English.
But these books are £35. This isn't a problem for DD, but if your family is on a low income, that's a lot of money, and just can't be done.

I went to grammar school . My parents struggled to be able to afford to send me but I was very lucky. My brother and sisters all went to secondary modern school.

What I remember most is how challenging my education seemed to be compared with theirs. I thrived in that environment , enjoying school. Later in life I wet on to get 3 degrees.

My brothers and sisters were all less academically inclined and also tell me they enjoyed their school days , feeling they were challenged too. I think I would have done less well in their environment as an academically interested child.

So horses for courses I say ! I would send my grandchildren if they had the opportunity .

When I was a cub mistress one thing was really upsetting. All those boys who were good friends, attended the three junior schools in the town, come 11+ And the moving up from Cubs to scouts, the msjority of boys who,passed the 11+ went onto scouts, the boys who failed and went to the sec mod , try dropped out of scouting , happened every year, friendships ended , the sec mod boys knew as soon as they failed that exam they were on a different life path to their friends who passed this vile examination .

My three grandchildren attended the local comp, youngest still there doing A levels, grandson went to university , a1st in economics, elder granddaughter at same university and doing fine, third grandchild hopes to get in the same university next year.

They certainly can. Especially if a child is willing to learn. And wants to.

(And there's the rub)

Comprehensive schools also provide a good education.

No way do grammar schools make for elitism. They simply provide a good education.

Elitism comes from the nature of the child. And possibly the abilities of said kid.

There is life outside of school.

I agree AND grammar school can be hot houses interested only in results. I would want my child to have a soul as well as a brain.

Support from me for daphnedill's approach - no to the reintroduction of grammar schools. They're elitist and put 80% of children into some nether world. Yes we can improve, we can always improve, on the system we have but not by going back to the 1940's and 50's.

Exactly! What people forget is that the first comprehensives were in response to the rising number of white collar/middle class parents, who couldn't get their children into grammar schools nor afford independent schools.

The people who want to bring back grammar schools never seem to consider that their own children or grandchildren might end up in a secondary modern

The situation in NI is different from England, where there is a patchwork of provision. Some counties, such as Kent, have a traditional system with grammar schools for about 20% and secondary moderns (which they call 'comprehensives' but aren't) for the rest. Other areas, such as Essex, have just four grammar schools, which makes them highly competitive and, until the rules were changed a couple of years ago, attracted pupils from a huge radius.

My children were the first in my direct family not to go to grammar or independent school. They went to the local comprehensive and both have excelled academically, taken part in all sorts of extra-curricular activities, made good friends and are (relatively) sane with good social skills. I couldn't ask for more.

f2f = dd

The f2f of a close friend went to a comprehensive school, did A levels and uni. She is now teaching, is head of dept, is on the board of governors of two schools, and heading for vice principal.
Ability and determination.

I went to secondary school plus two years at a 'tech' to do secretariat certificates. Totally working class.
My son passed his 11+ without tutoring, went to gs and is now a Phd. His gs is 5th in the league for NI.
No way do I see the grammar schools in our area as being for the privileged. At the time my then DH was ill, unemployed, I worked part time,, and we were in receipt of benefits,

Echoing Daphne here! X post.

I'm not sure we should measure everything by academic achievement and a bright child will do well what ever type of school he /she attends.

I went to an inner London comprehensive and learnt more about life than was probably appropriate for my age. I have no idea how I came to be Head Girl and went on to study at a top university ... I can't remember being pushed or working very hard. The only difference between me and the GS or private students at university was that I had a "bad" accent.

I agree with Tegan that class size plays the biggest part, and today teaching in many schools is more like crowd control.

I meant 'grammar school candidates'.

Why would anybody want to introduce a system which condemns 80% to secondary moderns?

I mark GCSE papers and a very high percentage of grammar children candidates have Hindu or Chinese-sounding names. I also know that not all grammar schools candidates produce excellent results. Comprehensive school candidates obviously have a wider range, but the ones at the the top are just as good as any grammar or independent school.

London schools have improved greatly over the last ten years. On average, they produce some of the highest results in the country.