Social mobility and grammar schools

Employers do pay a levy, but it's matched by the EU. The fear is that the government won't have the same commitment to spending money on training as the EU does.

feweek.co.uk/2016/06/17/my-brexit-fears-for-apprenticeships/

Big companies traditionally play a big role in providing training programmes, but they won't do it for free.

Ward assistants do not work for the hospital. They are usually paid minimum wage and work for companies like Sodexo or Compass. There is nothing like the same loyalty or pride that an SEN had.

IMHO something as vital as training should not be funded by European money. We should be raising a training levy from industry.

You don't have to foresee it, Iam64. It's already happening .

It's a concern that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has been replaced by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. Modern apprenticeships are mainly funded by the EU and there is no guarantee that the funding will be replaced.

The UK was beginning to do some positive work with apprenticeships and everything is now uncertain. I fear that the emphasis on skills might be lost. This should be a long term strategy, not one which changes every few years at the whim of current politicians.

Jess is right about the move to a graduate profession and the reasons for that. My suggestion earlier about apprenticeships for social workers and nurses (for example) wasn't mean to criticise their current degree status. It was prompted by the fact that people who qualify for a degree/masters in those subjects are never going to earn enough to justify the expense of their training. SW used to have their training funded by local authorities with the expectation they would return as qualified sw and work for a minimum of two years for the authority. I can foresee the existing shortage of qualified sw, nurses, teachers getting much worse because of the expectation that they pay huge amounts for their training in professions where they will not earn the kind of salaries that say doctors/accountants do.

I think it is time to stop harking back to the days when an apprenticeship was something very different to today.
Today we have "modern apprenticeships" and they are very different.
As to nursing. Qualified nurses these days do a much wider range of tasks and carry out more complex tasks, than nurses did 50 years ago. The profile of patients in hospital is different too. A much higher proportion of patients are very ill and/or very dependent. Most of us can remember the days when someone would have a minor operation and be in hospital for a week. These days you might be there 24 hours, or less. There is no role now for an SEN nurse who can only do 70% of the tasks needed. The bed making and handing out food role that was included in nursing years ago is now done by Ward Assistants etc.
The increased complexity was one of the reasons why the nursing profession pushed for nursing to become a graduate profession.

I agree with daphnedill in her post at 7.30am yesterday- very sensible.

www.politics.co.uk/opinion-formers/ciob-chartered-institute-of-building/article/ciob-launches-call-for-evidence-as-part-of-government-led-ho

This should get more apprenticeships, providing they follow up on the talking shop.

MargaretX I'm not sure that my MIL's parents had 'contacts' when they paid for her apprenticeship all those years ago, and certainly the two young apprentices I know have managed without parental networking although I know it goes on in some circles.

I agree djen
An updated system of in-hospital training combined with day release would ensure we are training enough nurses as in the old SRN/SEN system and i do realise that some grades require a degree or more. However, the SEN grade produced some wonderful, practical and caring nurses in my experience (as a patient)
I am not sure that accommodation is provided these days either.

I suppose even a smallish firm of accountants can afford to take on and train a couple of apprentices - but the apprentices do have to work for their salary.
However, surely the NHS would find it cost-effective in the end.

theconversation.com/obstacles-to-social-mobility-in-britain-date-back-to-the-victorian-education-system-57371

Over 100 years ago academics and MPs were astounded that the working classes wanted to be educated above their status.
Nothing much has changed in the system if we are still discussing bringing back grammar schools.

That was my point durhamjen. That nurses and social workers (for example) need good practical and academic training, which the state should fund.

I remember I knew a girl whose parents paid for an apprenticehsip to the best hairdesser in town. And she was lucky to be taken. She went on to have her own salon

Then a boy in the youth club. He went to be an accountant and now I see his name everywhere when I'm visiting. So nothing's changed. if you have parents with contacts you're OK.

Unless, of course, they are an apprentice nurse these days, when they have to pay for the privilege of learning on the job, and working on the wards.
Why is nursing not considered the same as an apprenticeship?

Many years ago apprenticeships had to be paid for by the parents of the apprentice.
Some 'apprenticeships' these days (such as accountancy) require 'A' levels, give day release for the apprentice to obtain a degree, the firm trains and teaches well also and there is an opportunity to go on to become a chartered accountant (another two years after degree level).
In the meantime the apprentice earns a salary and has their fees paid for.

Mamie we were discussing the GDR. I don't even know if their schools were comprehenive. The term is English and in German they are called Gemeinschaft Schule, but I doubt if this was an East German name for a type of school. Before 1990?

Daphne WE all know that a school can be as bad as it is but if you have the right parents you can cope with any school. Her father was a vicar and he was in the West and decided for reasons best known to himself to move into the East.
She comes from a lovely country area far north, and somehow it was not as bad there, being on the edge of the GDR and I think her immense intelligence saw her through.
Someone like that with those parents would always make it. You can't judge the system by her.
Merkel is the name of her first husband who she studied with.

I've got one of those as well, daphne, my great great great grandfather's who was a cabinet maker.
I wonder how many more of us have.

daphnidill It was in the past in my case in the 60s, bookbinding. A lovely trade and I loved it. This thread led me to look up the trade and the pictures brought back many memories.

@Margaret

One outcome of the comprehensive schools in the former DDR was Angela Merkel.

Wow! I thought indentured apprenticeships were thing of the past. I still have my gt gt gt gt grandfather's half of his indenture.

There is no exclusive right to the word. In the UK, there's a difference between an apprenticeship and training, as you say. An apprenticeship is regulated for a start. I don't see why modern apprenticeships shouldn't use the word.

This discussion had me wondering about the five or six year apprenticeships that some of my friends did. Technical drawing, engineering spring to mend. Given the prohibitive cost of nursing or social work degrees, for example, I wonder if there is scope for apprenticeships in that kind of work. I mean rigorous training, with high expectation and continued academic study. I don't know enough about nursing but I can imagine generic social work training over that period of time, starting with less complex practical tasks. A Diploma could be awarded on completion and effective academic challenges alongside reflective supervision essential.

I wish company's would stop using the apprentiship when it's not, it's training. There's a difference. As someone who was indentured for 6 yrs I get a bit miffed every time I see or hear this.

MargaretX they are not "all treated the same".
Comprehensive schools have highly effective systems of setting and differentiation which cater for the needs of all abilities.