Social mobility and grammar schools

As to appreniceships. Apprentices are in the charge of their Master. the qualified man/women who has taken a course in training the apprentices- (Even ALDI and LIDL)

I have never heard on the BBC that people for this important work are being trained. You can't have one without the other.

We saw in the GDR what the result was when everybody was treated the same. I'm getting fed up by people assuming that I don't care about the other children. I have given hours of my time helping school children with their English.

All I can say is that the Realschule does well and they are well looked after. They gain from being without so much competition and many move onwards and upwards later on, but for my two bright GDDs they would be bored stiff.
Then the country prospers and the other children benefit from it. That is why South Germany will stick to their grammar schools.

Havent read ft but I speak as one whose DD1 went to a selective state grammar school (82 schools in its catchment ).She wasn't tutored (we went through one set of past papers )but this is 20years ago and I know that that is now common .
Dd2 just as bright but not a academic went to our local excellent comprehensive
Both my daughters have First class degrees
I think the money should go into impriving standards in all schools as other posters are right It is easy for the better off to have their children tutored .It wont necesarily benefit them in the long run though as I think any child who has to be 'crammed' might struggle with the high standards and intellectual challenge of grammar schools .Or maybe they have changed ...

I think the profile of apprenticeships should be raised, sothat there are structured training and qualifications for almost every job, as there are in Germany. It really does show that even people in quite menial jobs know their stuff.

Daphne- not sure about proportions - but Switzerland specialises in Precision Engineering of many types- and in my specific area, quality watch making (top brands). So a lot of apprenticeships are based on the above (as well as all trades, including sales/clerks/carers, arts, etc, etc)- so plenty of 'factory' jobs- but only for highly qualified workers.

After or during apprenticeships, students can link up to academic qualifications, and go on to become Masters of their trade/skill or go on to Uni.

I know that, daphne, but I still think the fact that our manufacturing has declined dramatically has downgraded the idea of apprenticeships.
Granddaughter of a friend of mine has an apprenticeship in Specsavers stores. She was going to do A levels, then changed her mind. No idea about opthalmology, but is loving it now.

The other problem is that the work has been outsourced to private companies. I went for an interview with one of these companies. My job would have been to go into schools and persuade school leavers to sign up, even though there weren't any apprenticeships. The company would then have a list when something came available - if it did. I thought it sounded like a bit of a scam and I don't think I sounded very positive, which is probably why I didn't get the job.

Apprenticeships don't need to be in factories. All sorts of organisations, such as accountants, garages, councils, hospitals, vets, etc etc take on apprentices. They usually train them to a Level 3 qualification. The trouble is that the system in the UK is very hit and miss and isn't properly regulated, so some employers just take on cheap labour.

Does Switzerland have more factory employment than the UK?

I couldn't agree more! Rather than muck about with the system by opening more grammar schools and/or academies/free schools, the UK should make post 16 education its number one priority. At the moment it's a mess and it could learn much from other countries.

'That's why I think all pupils should have a general education until about 15 (as they do in Finland), because it makes it possible to switch track if people change their minds later. They won't have shut any doors. Age 10/11 is far too young to pigeon-hole pupils. ,

totally agree- but this is exactly what Comprehensives offer in areas where the Grammar/Sec Mod (Comp??) went a long time ago.

There should be better linking of apprenticeships with 6th Form/A'Levels- as is the case here in Switzerland. Students can leave at 16 to do an apprenticeship- but have the option to do this combined with more academic studies. I know many here who wer glad to leave at 16 but then realised they did want to go beyond the apprenticeship and had the means to do so and go to Uni afterwards. Takes 1 or 2 years extra- but then those students are so much more motivated and have gathered great and valuable experience on the way.

I'd be with you there dd, keep comprehensives, broad education to 15 - 16 (year 11 I think) when pupils could opt for either a more academic or apprenticeship type higher education. You are right about the need to invest in restoring adult education opportunities.
We need to invest in education and training, including for adults. So many excellent nurses, teachers, doctors go into their training as mature students. Many of them have children to support. Unless you become a GP, or get an oxbridge degree that leads to law/accountancy in the city, you aren't going to earn enough to justify spending £60,000 on your degree and pgtc/sw degree.

@Jalima

That's why I think all pupils should have a general education until about 15 (as they do in Finland), because it makes it possible to switch track if people change their minds later. They won't have shut any doors. Age 10/11 is far too young to pigeon-hole pupils.

By the age of 15, most pupils know which subjects they prefer and could choose an appropriate route, even if it's not job specific. The other side of this is that there needs to be investment in restoring adult education opportunities.

I realised it was an ofsted statement, Jalima, not one made by you.
It's still a strange statement to make. As I said, all schools should be doing that.

You would know where I lived, then, Tricia.
Born Louis Street, moved back to Hymers Avenue.

I'll put my hard hat on here. If I had a magic wand, I'd have selection at 15 in the UK (having abolished GCSEs, which are no longer necessary) and allow pupils to decide, in consultation with parents and teachers, their pathway for the last three years of compulsory education. They would be old enough to decide and would have had a chance to try all subjects in the first years of secondary education, so would be able to make decisions based on experience
I agree
Mind you, all of my DC are doing something completely different to what they chose to do at 18.

I did a teacher exchange in 1992- in a Realschule in Marzahn, the concrete jungle in the most Eastern part of Berlin. But really- what is the point of comparing this with the current situation in the UK. Chalk and cheese surely.

As for the size of some Comprehensives, this is a separate issue - and has nothing to do with the system of education as such.

It depends what kind of academy it is and who's sponsoring it.
I didn't say I was in favour of it, just relating how it has changed over the years and I know nothing about it having moved away over 30 years ago. Heaven forbid that it could be like the one on the news tonight in Bradford.

Just because one poster assumes what is in another's head does not make it true (not you dd)
one can make what one thinks is an interesting observation without being partisan surely.

DurhamJen I remember all those schools.Riley was one on my patch, and when our Centre left Beverley Road we moved into what had been Thoresby JHS, off Spring Bank West.
I worked in Hull 1968-90.

@Margaret

ALL children should be encouraged, not just the bright ones.

@Jalima

It depends what kind of academy it is and who's sponsoring it.

@Margaret

I visited the old DDR twice before 1989 - it wasn't just the schools which were grey, but the whole country. Schools reflect the society of the country where they are situated. In the case of the DDR, I don't suppose the pupils had much to aspire towards. I also visited a 'Gymnasium' in the former DDR (Jena) in the 1990s. The building was still grey and I can't honestly say the pupils were grasping the opportunities they were being given, which I suspect was to do with the society in which they and their parents had been raised.

I have a lot of time for the German 'Realschulen', but the UK never had technical high schools in all areas, although this was intended in the 1944 Act.

I'll put my hard hat on here. If I had a magic wand, I'd have selection at 15 in the UK (having abolished GCSEs, which are no longer necessary) and allow pupils to decide, in consultation with parents and teachers, their pathway for the last three years of compulsory education. They would be old enough to decide and would have had a chance to try all subjects in the first years of secondary education, so would be able to make decisions based on experience. Most importantly, they wouldn't sit a flawed exam at the age of 10/11. Big all-ability comprehensives, such as the one my children attended, already do this within the same building.

where we live now the schools had to struggle to get out of special measures, so yes, making progress towards outstanding is worthy of note.

But I forgot, it is an Academy, so a no no.

Of course I don't mean other children should be neglected but we lived cheek by jowl with the GDR and there everything was equal, so equal it drove clever intelligent children away from learning. There was no spark where should it come from everything was so grey and grey.
If you have intelligent children then they should be encouraged. They are the best a country can have no matter what field they evenually work in. Its true that I don't know much about comprehensives but I know that those in the bottom Sets felt just as neglected.
IN our part of Germany we have grammarschools but parents are quite content to send their children to the Realschule which ends at 16. They don't want their children at grammarschool becaue those children seek their way in the world, move away to study, and often don't come back.
Many parents would rather their children stay near home and do an apprenticeship and if lucky marry someone nearby and live near their parents.
WE have had to persuade some parents to send their boy with my GDS to the grammarschool. He was conistently top of the class and is now in the right place for him and is contented.

I didn't make the statement, just copied it from their website out of interest
perhaps I should have put it on as a link

As a grammar school in the olden days the school produced four very distinguished artists, which is also interesting and not at all strange imo.
Let's hope it can produce more outstanding alumni in the future.