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WHO do the political parties represent

(110 Posts)
Gracesgran Fri 12-Aug-16 11:07:41

I have begun to think this is 'the question'. The main parties will tell us WHAT they stand for but not who.

When you listen to UKIP supporters they will often describe NG as someone who 'gets' them and their problems. Trump supporters seem to feel the same thing and Corbyn's supporters seem to have a similar view that he is saying things that relate to them.

Do people really want all the detail of policies or has the Gove quote that "Britain has had enough of experts" summed up the more tribal views that actually exist.

You might ask why then do the Conservatives scrape into power. Easy really. If you keep telling people their tribe will only survive if our tribe (capitalists) does you can convince them, just as the Barons convinced the peasants that protection came from making the Barons rich.

Just a thought smile

obieone Fri 12-Aug-16 12:41:57

I think that the population of the UK is now so large, that there is no longer a one size fits all for anything.

We also have to take into account that most or the majority of the electorate are not that interested in spending a lot of their precious time looking into politics, so they need and can only cope with politics lite.
Which is where I think the remain camp in particular got it wrong.

Nowadays, "experts" are often more scrutinized and found lacking, so "experts" are not held in such high regard on anything, as they once were.

In short, politics is now dumbed down which is not a bad thing in my opinion.

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 12:42:52

Thanks for starting this thread. Hopefully, there will be some interesting discussion.

I'm not so sure that if you interviewed the majority of confirmed Conservative supporters that they would see themselves as capitalists. I suspect what they want is a comfortable life without upheaval. They would see that they've earned what they have and don't want to give away to people who don't deserve it. The original Tory Party wanted to maintain the 'status quo' and I think there's still an element of that.

It's the opposition who brand Conservatives as capitalists, because they question the basis of wealth in the world.

The role of the media can't be ignored. The British have been fed ideas for decades (maybe centuries). It's quite interesting to read foreign media and see how interpretations differ.

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 12:44:27

@obieone

How can you justify 'dumbed down politics'? Do you think the population is dumb and doesn't deserve anything better? shock

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 12:46:23

PS, obieone. If you think the Remain side got it wrong by not having dumbed down politics, does that mean that you think the Leave side is dumb? They've been doing their best to refute that claim.

Badenkate Fri 12-Aug-16 13:04:18

However much the British public may have thought they'd had enough of experts, it is becoming more and more obvious that, on the whole, they got things right.

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 13:34:41

People who ignore experts seem to have very closed minds.

I think there are a couple of problems with 'experts':

1 Anybody can say they're an expert. You only have to look around the internet to see how any cowboy (or girl) can claim to be an expert, especially on nutrition and health. Once they're established as an expert, they can sell books and have TV programmes. People are right to question them.

2 The media describes too many people as 'experts'. During my career, I've worked with quite a few people who went on to very senior roles and are now hailed as 'experts'. Very often they are nothing of the sort, apart from being expert bullshi**ers.

3 There are many areas where even experts disagree. I'm sure most people would agree that Prof Mary Beard knows more than almost anybody on the planet about classical civilisation, but even she disagrees with some other experts, because there is no definite proof after two thousand years.

HOWEVER, even if experts aren't always right, they know a heck of a lot more about various issues than the vast majority of people do and their views will be based on facts, not gut feelings and prejudice. If people want to challenge experts, they need to know at least as many facts and use those to challenge interpretation. They don't. They resort to being insulting and/or dismissive, because their own worldview is challenged.

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 13:48:09

Gggrrrr! Must learn not to click too early.

There is quite a bit of discussion in the media about the 'post truth politics' of people such as Trump and Johnson.

This is an article from the Telegraph:

In a world of post-truth politics, Andrea Leadsom will make the perfect PM

Michael Deacon Parliamentary Sketchwriter

One day in summer 1999, the comedian Stewart Lee was riding through London in a taxi when the driver turned to him. “I think,” said the driver, “that all homosexuals should be killed.”

Somewhat taken aback by the abruptness of this announcement, Lee asked why. “Well,” said the driver. “Because homosexuality is immoral.”

Politely, Lee suggested that notions of morality are far from immutable. For example, he said, modern Western society derives many of its fundamental principles – in ethics, aesthetics, philosophy and more – from ancient Greece: a society in which love between two men was regarded as the
purest love of all.

The driver, however, was unimpressed.

“Yes, well,” he huffed. “You can prove anything with facts, can’t you?”

When Lee repeated this line in his stand-up shows, audiences laughed. Maybe they shouldn’t have. Like all great revolutionary thinkers, that taxi driver was simply ahead of his time. Because, if I had to pick a quote to sum up British politics in 2016, it would be that.

We apparently now inhabit a world that appears to be increasingly anti-fact. It’s a world in which campaigners for Brexit unblushingly asserted that Britain sends £350m a week to the EU, and pledged to spend the entirety of this imaginary sum on the NHS. It’s a world in which the defence minister, Penny Mordaunt, falsely told voters that Britain has no veto over Turkey joining the EU. And it’s a world in which 84 Tory MPs happily voted for a leadership candidate, Andrea Leadsom, who has made numerous deeply questionable claims about her career before politics.

The war on truth is being fought every bit as heroically on the Left as it is on the Right. The week before last, a far-Left website, The Canary, published a conspiracy theory about a “Blairite PR firm” masterminding the overthrow of Jeremy Corbyn – and saw their nonsense circulated by thousands of people. An employee of the PR firm, Portland Communications, has since said he’s received a written death threat headed “hello comrade” and warning him that “your blood is the price of your treachery”.

In a sense, The Canary captures the spirit of our times perfectly. Its purported aim is to counter the biases of the mainstream media, aka “the MSM” – yet it does so using an eye-popping bias of its own. Jeremy Corbyn, in The Canary’s view, can do no wrong, and his every appearance at the Commons dispatch box is reported as a thundering triumph, no matter how badly he fumbles and falters.

The Remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It doesn’t work. You’ve got to connect with people emotionally.

Clearly, though, there are readers who are only too willing to swallow it. The Canary is telling them exactly what they long to hear, and – since no other media outlet seems willing to provide this service – they accept its claim to be a brave and lonely voice of truth.

There really is an audience for this type of fantasy. Maybe I should launch a far-Left news site of my own, in which I report that Jeremy Corbyn is currently entering his 10th year as prime minister, poverty has been eliminated and nuclear weapons have been abolished. I could put The Canary out of business within days. Look at those Blairite traitors at The Canary, peddling the lie that Mr Corbyn is merely Leader of the Opposition! How dare they undermine him! No doubt they’ve been put up to it by their paymasters at Portland Communications!

The web and social media have made the spreading of conspiracy theories immeasurably more efficient. And you can see why they’re popular. Conspiracy theories are paradoxically not just angering, but comforting. They tell us that our problems are not our fault, and attribute them instead to a bogeyman enemy – “Zionists”, “elites”, “the Establishment”, “the MSM”. They appear to make sense of a dauntingly complex world, by reducing it to a children’s story about goodies and baddies.

And the more you’re convinced that the world is run by malevolent elites covertly working against your interests, the less likely you are to believe official sources of information. Not only newspapers, but academics, scientists, economists. “I think the people of this country,” sniffed Michael Gove, “have had enough of experts.” Perhaps he was right.

He wasn’t the only Brexit campaigner to identify and capitalise upon public distrust. Arron Banks, the multimillionaire behind Leave.EU, cheerfully attributed his campaign’s success to the mantra “facts don’t work”. Speaking after his referendum triumph, he said: “The Remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It doesn’t work. You’ve got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”

In 2016, a politician who lies is said to be ‘running a positive campaign’, while opponents who point out the lies are ‘engaged in personal attacks’

He’s not wrong. Manipulating emotion does work; feelings can beat facts. This is why modern political campaigners love to use the words “positive” and “negative”, “optimism” and “pessimism”: they enable the easy dismissal of criticism.
Thus a politician who lies is “running a positive campaign”, while opponents who point out the lies are “engaged in personal attacks”. Inconvenient facts can be denounced as “smears”, and warnings as “scaremongering”. In the Scottish referendum of 2014, anyone who questioned the Yes campaign’s utopian vision of independence was accused of “talking Scotland down”. This year, anyone who questioned the utopian vision of Brexit was “talking Britain down”.

It’s a simple but effective message. Facts are negative. Facts are pessimistic. Facts are unpatriotic.

In light of all this, I think Andrea Leadsom makes an ideal candidate for prime minister. She embodies the mood of anti-factual “positivity”. On Thursday, during what was billed as “a major speech on the economy”, she mentioned little in the way of policy, but to great cheers spoke sunnily of “hope”, “optimism” and “banishing the pessimists”. She portrayed the fall in the pound as “great news for exports”. And, to show that Brexit hasn’t harmed our economy, she noted that the FTSE 100 was up.

Critics have argued that it was up largely because our currency had plummeted to a 30-year low against the dollar. Yes, well. You can prove anything with facts, can’t you?

obieone Fri 12-Aug-16 13:51:37

dd
1. agree
2. agree
3. agree

Dont agree much with your HOWEVER points. One of my sons works in science. Apart from the things that are proper facts, some other stuff is really only opinions, political bias, interpretation and gut feelings and prejudice too. Science is known for not being exact. How can it be? Not everything has been discovered yet.

People can challenge "experts" by getting others to do it for them, they dont necessarily have to do it themselves.

obieone Fri 12-Aug-16 13:58:06

Politics lite is not dumb. It partly means being more succinct, mainly because people do not have as much spare time as they once did. Many more two income families. They havent got time to spend too long looking in depth into politics, or anything else for that matter.
Twitter manages to keep going using 140 characters only. The world and the UK has changed if you ask me. That is why clubs cannot get volunteers etc, families just dont have the spare time.

M0nica Fri 12-Aug-16 15:35:35

Most people vote for self-interest and vote for the party they think will best serve their interests.

It has always been so and always will be.

I am not convinced by the 'families do not have as much spare time' argument. The average person spends 25 hours a week surfing the net and more hours on top of that watching television (some of it online). They have the time to visit the supermarket on a daily basis, where most of our generation could only find time for one large organised shop a week. It is rather that many families rate their leisure pursuits above the ties of family.

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 18:21:37

If people rely on 140 word messages, headlines, soundbites and incomplete statistics, they only have themselves to blame if they're manipulated by people who spend time finding out how politics works. If people can't be bothered finding out real facts, I'm not sure they have any right to play a part in the democratic process which affects other people.

obieone Fri 12-Aug-16 18:29:09

But presumably 52% of the population are happy with the result. The ones who you suggest were manipulated.

People have 1 person 1 vote. And I for one am glad about that. That they dont have to pass some sort of test devised by other people in order to get it.

The suffragettes didnt put stipulations on it, but now it seems, some people want to.

obieone Fri 12-Aug-16 18:30:59

M0nica. But people do need spare time and switch off time. Hobbies and finding out about politics would come after that for lots of people.

The average person would include those people who do not have jobs and those who are below the age of 18 I would have thought.

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 18:43:40

@ obieone

I didn't introduce the referendum - you did. I meant any kind of representation. If people are content to behave like sheep, that's their choice, but I don't see that they have the right to make decisions.

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 18:46:22

Even under 18 year olds surf the net for political news. It has never been easier or quicker to find out real information and to check the rubbish sometimes thrown at us by the MSM. People have no excuse.

PS. I don't accept the 'families have no time' argument either. My 85 year old mother worked for most of my childhood and I hardly ever saw my father apart from on Sundays.

daphnedill Fri 12-Aug-16 18:57:15

@MOnica

I think it's a bit more complex than that. Obviously, there are some altruistic souls who do vote for higher taxes, etc, knowing they will lose out. There are also people who vote Conservative, because they don't want to admit that actually they're one of the plebs. I suppose it's some kind of misplaced pride. My mother would never vote Labour ever, despite the fact that she's suffering from cuts to social care and disability benefits.

The Labour Party has always appealed to diverse groups, which is, I think, why they're having problems with their identity.

obieone Fri 12-Aug-16 19:57:27

daphniedill, I will agree to differ with you on everything on here. Makes it easier that way!

petra Fri 12-Aug-16 20:04:41

obieone daphnidill will love that, she gets a bit confused & bored if people keep agreeing with her smile

granjura Fri 12-Aug-16 20:06:12

LOL - a great way to debate, hey!

Totally agree about the broad spectrum of the Labour party and identity. We've all heard the sarchastic comments about so-called 'Champagne socialists' and the massive criticisms when they happen to 'do' differently to what they 'say or believe'. Personally I totally understand, for instance- Labour members sending their kids to private school if their local schools are over-crowded and have problems. Totally understand how they would not wish to sacrifice their kids to their principles- and at the same time say that the local schools should be better funded to cut class size, etc. FOR ALL CHILDREN not just their own.

We were very lucky to have good comprehensive schools in our area- both at middle/upper/ and 6th Form. Had this not been the case, i would not have hesitated- but then used all my energy and 'influence' to improve the local schools.

Carolpaint Sat 13-Aug-16 10:55:35

Thank you Daphne for sanity. Unfortunately Labour is in disarray so there is not a valid opposition. As long as The Daily Mail and The Sun are bought by women and men of this country who lack the awareness to see beyond being manipulated by rich vested interests who also own the satellite media we will bump along viewed as the underclass. Cannon fodder does not change, just its chains. I am altruistic and would pay higher taxes and have done so. Fairness and morality have been trampled on and truth and facts despised.

Gracesgran Sat 13-Aug-16 11:33:29

I don't think I made it really clear what I was asking (although, of course, that may not be what you want to discusssmile).

Let's us say - just to get the idea going - that it used to be, just after the war that:

We had a mixed economy
Labour represented the waged man
Conservative represented the middle class or salaried man
Liberals represented the intellectual man

It doesn't matter if this is totally accurate it's just meant as a starting point. Labour would also have attracted those who thought we should change society to a more communist structure and the Conservatives would have attracted those who wanted to change society to a more capitalist structure.

Which party represents who now? Since Thatcher we have moved more towards the capitalist structure in the hope that this would benefit all but this appears to have failed with an even bigger disparity between the rich and the poor.

Will this continue? Will those getting less out of the countries overall economy do more than vote us out of Europe? If the country did this because it was the first time they felt there vote would really have an effect how can parties really represent people in very different circumstances.

I don't feel any party represents me and my situation in society and I don't think I am alone in this feeling. I haven't stopped voting yet but what if these parties represent so few people and more and more feel that the party they felt represented them in the past doesn't now. What if even more people stopped voting because no party comes anywhere near to representing them?

M0nica Sat 13-Aug-16 11:57:18

gracesgran. the simple answer is that since the war social structures that could divide people easily into groups no longer exists. A trivial point but now, no matter what are social situation we all talk about our 'pay'. Wage and Salary are words rarely used

In the past Labour = working class = rented council home
Conservative = middle class = owner occupation.

These divisions no longer apply and the stated aims of most parties are much the same. The argument is all about how to reach the nirvana they ll want to reach.

I would now see it this way
Labour = everything runs better if it is run by the state
Conservative = everything runs better if left to market forces
Lib/Dems = everything runs better of we all have a say in how things are done through co-perative working in all its forms.

obieone Sat 13-Aug-16 12:02:31

Good post M0nica.

rosesarered Sat 13-Aug-16 12:06:10

Good answer Monica I agree with those definitions, the trouble is I want a bit of all those reasons mixed together! A completely new Party methinks.